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PostPosted: Sep 24th, '07, 04:57 
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Hey Vince, I'm jumping in here just now. I agree with your second post but not your first one. Yes the power and money classes are using us all as puppets ultimately, but you need to find the separation between the American people and the actions of our so-called leadership. Our media hasn't been serving the people for a while now (it is an open question whether they even want to tell us the truth), and we don't hear about a lot of the things that go on unless we make an effort to seek out the truth. The levers of power in the US are bought and paid for not by the average citizen but by the parasites of our society. Does the house need cleaning - yes. Can the Australians do it for us long distance - no.


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PostPosted: Sep 24th, '07, 07:56 
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bundaberg kid wrote:
...cant possibly grasp the notion that their government is capable of any atrocities, i would call that ignorant

For the record I certainly think governments are capable of atrocities. The Australian government's involvement in the Iraq invasion is atrocious. The Australian government's mandatory detention of refugees including women and children, atrocious. We have an election coming up. :)

Ironic that Vince gave us Nelson Mandela's view on the Middle East, given that Saddam killed the Mandelas

And DD unfortunately the most powerful man in controlling the media in your country, our country and most other Western countries is an Australian, or at least he was until he took up US citizenship in order to be able to control more media in your country.


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 04:41 
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Michael_Ferrini,
Thanks for the notes you added to my posting back on page two. Believe it or not, you helped clarify many of the statements I made. The big problem is that there are too many lies being told, by both sides.

As an example, the President of Iran is in New York for an annual meeting of the UN. Mr. I need a dinner jacket (sorry, but most of us have a hard time pronouncing his name, let alone remembering how to spell it) has said in the past that he does not believe that the Holocaust of the Second World War happened, personally I would like to take him to Dachau, Triblenka or one of the other death camps. Let him see the buildings, the fencing, the museums full of records, photographs and artifacts. Then if he still does not believe I would like to give him a demonstration of one of the "ovens". I guarantee he would believe the minute he smells the gas before the pilot light is lit! Unfortuantely too many people in this world are like him and believe that we fabricated the evidence in order to justify the Second World War and the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the middle east, something that was discussed over twenty years before at the end of the First World War!

Currently we have a large number of people who have bought the lie that the US and the Israels planned and committed the atrocities of the World Trade Center. Due to the growing number of criminial terrorist acts that have been committed in Asia, and the Pacific rim I wonder how much longer people in Australia will continue to buy this load of s**t! The proof is out there that the biggest thing the US and Israel did, was under estimate the information they had gathered that something was going to happen, and how it was probably going to happen. (We had a flight instructor in Florida who reported to the FBI that he had students from the Middle East who's behaviour, attitude, and documentation made him believe that they were involved in something. These were the guys who told him they weren't concerned with taking off or landing the plane, they only wanted to learn how to control it while it was in flight. Then, by the time the FBI was ready to investigate, they had already flown into the World Trade Center Towers.)

You know, I wonder what the Australian soldiers and sailors of World War II would say to someone claiming that after they were captured by the Japanese they were treated ethically and humanely? Just ask the old boys who survived the hell on earth that the Japanese came up with for them on the docks in Japan, or the ones who spent time building a railroad in Burma. I just about bet they will tell you that as far as they are concerned the Japanese are still our enemies and every last one of them needs to be tortured and executed! (A good friend of mine was a US Marine Corps sniper stationed in the Pacific. He died several years ago, but he never forgot, nor forgave the Japanese for the brutality they committed both during battle and to their prisoners after.) My Father was a US Navy Machinists Mate stationed in the Pacific, and while he never had direct battle contact with the Japanese, he still had great anger and resentment towards them several years later. (In 1980 my brother bought a Datsun pick up. My Father was deeply angered and upset that my brother did not buy an American made vehicle.)

Lies cause all of us problems in reaching means of resolving issues. If you look at your own personal lives, you can recall times when you were lied to by those who you carried about and trusted. Did those lies help the problem? No, they only increased it and delayed reaching a solution.
Kevin


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 09:13 
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Moke, you only need type president of Iran into google, and you will get the correct spelling for President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.. It's even quicker than typing degrading comments about him.. The conspiracy theories about the world trade centre did not come from, and have not been proliferated by Australians, they came from within the US, the only reason we know about it is because we have so much US tv over here.

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to promote from your last paragraphs, are you trying to suggest that people should never get over things, never forgive, and move on? I have no animosity towards Japan or Japanese people, and quite frankly if there are any old soldiers who still think that all Japanese should be tortured and executed then I'd be extremely ashamed of them.

Personally I would rather concentrate on moving forward, trying to advance humanity.. Now that is "humanity" not any particular race or nation, humanity as a whole diverse tapestry of different religions and political persuasions.


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 10:05 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Well said EB!!!
My old man was shot several times, his brothers were killed by Japanese soldiers.
But this was in the theatre of war, it was thought 'Gentlemen' fight the wars..but bastards put them upto it!


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 10:55 
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i thought we WERE over it, dont we allow Japanese officials to lay wreaths at our memorials on anzac and rememberance days?


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 11:45 
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I think Australians learned to overcome the resentment towards the Japanese a long time ago. Some diggers have met up with Japanese soldiers who fought mere meters away from each other on the Kokoda track. The soldiers in particular would not still hate the Japanese, because in the end they were all just following orders and when the war ended they were not enemies anymore.

Things that happened 60 years ago, happened, we are great full for the lives that were lost, and we honor their sacrifice every year. But no one blames Germany, or Japan or Russia for the atrocities of WW2. Everyone has acknowledged the part they played in that war.

That may be the key difference between the Australian and US people. All this discussion we have had here has made this quite clear. But I feel, and I am expressing my opinion, that the Australian people are able to forgive and forget a lot easier than US. I suppose a civil war would do that to a country and wars with both of your neighbors, and over the minorities.... twice. Whether you like it or not America is a waring nation and until it stops fighting everyone else's wars, the people will continue to harbor anger and resentment to the rest of the world.


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 12:22 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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yep!


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 12:58 
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I think Australians learned to overcome the resentment towards the Japanese a long time ago.


Still pleny of diggers who haven't forgiven the Japanese Tim. Those who were in Burma for instance.


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 14:02 
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Yes, but those were extreme circumstances. Look at Changi for example, the TV series was made and the connections they had after the war with the Japanese. It was a very blunt but positive view of the POW camps.

The vast majority of Australians do not have any negative feelings towards to Japanese. I work with an exceptional Japanese teacher. I have met his wife. They are both lovely people. Japan has made a very positive step towards making up for the things they did in WW2.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 14:02 
Sadly I see many of the same names shaping US foreign policy today that were shaping US policy thirty years ago in the days of the Cold War and Vietnam

Sadly I DON'T see any real lesson that have been learnt (IMHO)....

Sadly I DON'T see any peacemakers in this list or any expression of anything other than the maintenance of dominance and self interest by means of force.....

Once, it was the sole province of the President to control the nuclear arsenal.... recently this was extended to a certifiably insane Vice - President Dick Cheney....

Sorry but this alone scares me MORE than a bunch of tea-towel wearing mal-contents hiding in a dark cave somewhere in Tora Bora.... yelling "Death to America"

We here in Australia cannot change US foreign policy directly.... but we can make sure we elect a government that represents a saner viewpoint and world outlook....

It is for the people of the US to deal with the architects of current and thirty year old world outlook and approach to foreign policy.

If they choose not to do so at the ballot poll, then the world does have the right to assume that the majority of the people of America support the aims and views expressed by those they elected to power and those men of influence that hover shadowingly around the halls of power.

Those people's agendas are clear and have been for a decade ...

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When the Bush administration started lobbying for war with Iraq, they used as rationale a definition of preemption (generally meaning anticipatory use of force in the face of an imminent attack) that was broadened to allow for the waging of a preventive war in which force may be used even without evidence of an imminent attack. They also were able to convince much of the American public that Saddam Hussein had something to do with the attacks of 9/11, despite the fact that no evidence of a link has been uncovered. Consequently, many people supported the war on the basis of 1) a policy that has no legal basis in international law and 2) a totally unfounded claim of Iraqi guilt.

What most people do not know, however, is that certain high ranking officials in the Bush administration have been working for regime change in Iraq for the past decade, long before terrorism became an important issue for our country. In 1997 they formed an organization called the Project for the New American Century (PNAC).



Quote:
PNAC members on the Bush team include;

Vice-President Dick Cheney and his top national security assistant, I. Lewis Libby;

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld;

Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz;

National Security Council member Eliot Abrams;

Undersecretary for Arms Control and International Security John Bolton;

Former Chairman of the Defense Policy Board, Richard Perle.

Other PNAC members exerting influence on U.S. policy are the President of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq Randy Scheunemann,

Republican Party leader Bruce Jackson

and current PNAC chairman William Kristol, conservative writer for the Weekly Standard.

Jeb Bush, the president's brother and governor of Florida, is also a member.


Quotes above from an article Here

The full PNAC report "Rebuilding America's Defenses" can be seen Here

Some quotes from the above PNAC document....


Quote:
This report proceeds from the belief that America should seek to preserve and extend its position of global leadership by maintaining the preeminence of U.S. military forces. Today, the United States has an unprecedented strategic opportunity.

It faces no immediate great-power challenge; it is blessed with wealthy, powerful and democratic allies in every part of the world; it is in the midst of the longest economic expansion in its history; and its political and economic principles are almost universally embraced. At no time in history has the international security order been as conducive to American interests and ideals.


Quote:
ESTABLISH FOUR CORE MISSIONS for U.S. military forces:

• defend the American homeland;

• fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars;

• perform the “constabulary” duties associated with shaping the security environment in critical regions;

• transform U.S. forces to exploit the “revolution in military affairs;”

To carry out these core missions, we need to provide sufficient force and budgetary allocations. In particular, the United States must:

MAINTAIN NUCLEAR STRATEGIC SUPERIORITY, basing the U.S. nuclear deterrent upon a global, nuclear net assessment that weighs the full range of current and emerging threats, not merely the U.S.-Russia balance.

RESTORE THE PERSONNEL STRENGTH of today’s force to roughly the levels anticipated in the “Base Force” outlined by the Bush Administration, an increase in active-duty strength from 1.4 million to 1.6 million.

REPOSITION U.S. FORCES to respond to 21st century strategic realities by shifting permanently-based forces to Southeast Europe and Southeast Asia, and by changing naval deployment patterns to reflect growing U.S. strategic concerns in East Asia.

DEVELOP AND DEPLOY GLOBAL MISSILE DEFENSES to defend the American homeland and American allies, and to provide a secure basis for U.S. power projection around the world.

CONTROL THE NEW “INTERNATIONAL COMMONS” OF SPACE AND “CYBERSPACE,” and pave the way for the creation of a new military service – U.S. Space Forces –with the mission of space control.

EXPLOIT THE “REVOLUTION IN MILITARY AFFAIRS” to insure the long-term superiority of U.S. conventional forces.

Establish a two-stage transformation process which
• maximizes the value of current weapons systems through the application of advanced technologies, and,
• produces more profound improvements in military capabilities, encourages competition between single services and joint-service experimentation efforts.

INCREASE DEFENSE SPENDING gradually to a minimum level of 3.5 to 3.8 percent of gross domestic product, adding $15 billion to $20 billion to total defense spending annually.


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At present the United States faces no global rival. America’s grand strategy should aim to preserve and extend this advantageous position as far into the future as possible.


Quote:
Preserving the desirable strategic situation in which the United States now finds itself requires a globally preeminent military capability both today and in the future.


Quote:
As will be argued more fully below, effective ballistic missile defenses will be the central element in the exercise of American power and the projection of U.S. military forces abroad. Without it, weak states operating small arsenals of crude ballistic missiles, armed with basic nuclear warheads or other weapons of mass destruction, will be a in a strong position to deter the United States from using conventional force, no matter the technological or other advantages we may enjoy.


Quote:
And even should U.S.-Iranian relations improve, retaining forward-based forces in the region would still be an essential element in U.S. security strategy given the longstanding American interests in the region.


Quote:
In general, to maintain American military preeminence that is consistent with the requirements of a strategy of American global leadership, tomorrow’s U.S. armed forces must meet three new missions:

• Global missile defenses. A network against limited strikes, capable of protecting the United States, its allies and forward-deployed forces, must be constructed. This must be a layered system of land, sea, air and spacebased components.

• Control of space and cyberspace. Much as control of the high seas – and the protection of international commerce – defined global powers in the past, so will control of the new “international commons” be a key to world power in the future. An America incapable of protecting its interests or that of its allies in space or the “infosphere” will find it difficult to exert global political leadership.

• Pursuing a two-stage strategy for of transforming conventional forces. In exploiting the “revolution in military affairs,” the Pentagon must be driven by the enduring missions for U.S. forces.

This process will have two stages: transition, featuring a mix of current and new systems; and true transformation, featuring new systems, organizations and operational concepts. This process must take a competitive approach, with services and joint-service operations competing for new roles and missions.


Quote:
But, over the longer term, maintaining control of space will inevitably require the application of force both in space and from space,
including but not limited to antimissile defenses and defensive systems capable of protecting U.S. and allied satellites


Quote:
We cannot allow North Korea, Iran, Iraq or similar states to undermine American leadership, intimidate American allies or threaten the American homeland itself.


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 14:49 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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geez what can anyone say to that?
That scares the shyte out of me!


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 15:37 
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"...You can't hug your children with nuclear arms....."


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PostPosted: Sep 25th, '07, 18:17 
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.....has anyone watched "Team America"?


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PostPosted: Sep 26th, '07, 01:14 
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First of all please keep this thread open. It is needed. Second, I am watching the Ken Burns series about WWII, not that I am ignorant of history, but I staunchly believe those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Perhaps war is inherent in our nature, I do not have the answers, but after reading everyone's posts, we certainly are conflicted over how to get to the same destination of global peace.

Personally, as long as there are Bin Laden's and rhetorical fannatics like Ahmadinejad who are both polarized in idealogy and within reach of real destructive powers, we will always need to have a defense. It is both idealistic and unrealistic to believe that by all of us becoming lambs we will render the need of wolves useless. It only takes one staunch ideology to upset world peace and balance. Hitler proved this!

I have been twice to the Wisenthal Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles, and if you've never been, it is worth it to see the REAL destructive nature of man.

9/11 is the result of extreme ideology turned into hatred and contempt for western civilization having come to the middle east and exploited oil while supporting a perceived occupation. It is really that simple, however the hatred is now going on its third generation and is no longer simply about oil. It is about ideaology, religion and lifestyle. Removing ourselves from the middle east completely will remove America from the conflict in the short run. But those who remain will seek us out because of the threat we pose. You can bet your last dollar that there will be more attacks, increased animosity toward the west, greater efforts to seek the same global power that America has held for 100 years. The question everyone needs to be asking is whether they truly believe ideology and power can peacefully coexist with each other. For decades teh USSR and USA were on the brink, although ideologically speaking, we were closer than we now are with the middle east.

I do not care for George Bush or the way our government panders to corporate interests. I would like to think we have learned that with great power comes great responsibility. But those in the east who seek global dominance have not even experienced this type of responsibility or power and are poised to be next if and when we withdraw from the region. The question everyone should be asking in the west is whether the middle east can share power or not. Based on 9/11, I would think not.

Anyone care to take a different view?


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