Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Tend to agree Janet .... if the temps been up around 31 (not sure for how long) and the pool is only 3' (1mtr) deep... then if it's been warm for a while I'd suspect that the water temp is probably up around 21-22....

Even though it's large - 60,000ltr ... it is relatively shallow, covered in algae, warm to hot.... pH around 8 and ammonia between 0.3 - 1.0....

I'm picking that is probably really low in DO as well..... think maybe overall the cats are suffering from the effects of all three... ammonia, DO and temp.

Effectively it's a large thermal mass with wacky chemistry.... resistant to change over anything other than an extended period of time/temp

Probably not possible, but the idea of a 30% water change is probably a good idea, although the cats may be stressed beyond a point of recovery.

Other option is to somehow inject large amounts of aeration, even a long period of manually stirring the water around might help some.

Jaymies suggestion of shrouding at least half the pool would not only help with the algael growth but might lower the temp a bit as well.

Am I right that algael growth in itself will remove large amounts of DO from the water??

if the ammonia levels are to high then the chance of a viral infection expressing itself would be high. if the water quality was good the fish may be able to fight off the infection and perhaps develop immunity to it.

so first thing is to get water quality up. if symptoms persist you may have no option but to start a fresh.

Yup. Overnight.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA002

Getting rid of the excessive algae will help stablize the pH swings and will help resolve any oxygen issues.

Mathew, I believe that most of your problems are related to the algae.

1. Stop feeding the fish (that will help keep the ammonia from going higher and will give slightly less nutrient to feed the algae)

2. Work on reducing the algae with shading or barley straw or using competing plants (That will reduce the pH swings and mitigate the DO problem overnight).

3. Increase aeration. (That will help the DO problem, hopefully avoiding any other fishkills while you get the algae under control.)

Oh, and the ammonia has to come down, of course.

4. Consider investing in Ammo-lock or another ammonia-absorbing product. I'm not sure how expensive that would be, but it might be cheaper than doing a water change.

BF is right. Your water quality has to improve or your fish will start getting sicker and sicker. Either pH has to come down or the ammonia does. Ideally, both would come down, but you have to get at least one or the other resolved fast.

WELL,

That is certainly a lot to respond to.

I have read it all and will not try to respond to it all right this moment, as I am dedicating today to getting 4 GB's built that will give me 112cubic feet/837gallons/3171 liters of GB.

This will do much of what you all are speaking of, in particular;

-lots more bio filter
-potential for competing plants (compete with the algea)
-slightly cool the water
-even more aeration
-ensure much less gunk accumulation (with one other change of lettting the pool robot run daily (but only after the GB's are in action) to keep everything off the bottom and suspended until it is shipped to the GB's)
-over all better and more susstainable water quality.

Although I definately want to know, and appreciate the homework you have all done, I know if I don't get this part implemented, then no other attemps to attack any potential disease/parasite/fungas etc. will do any good.

By the way, I constantly have the tap on and I am back washing at least 10 times a day which is a good 10% change/daily (the water bill is another reason to get this finished)

Rup,
I am saying this with a smile, so don't miss understand,..... the air temp is 32 to 41 for between 6-9 months here. We have a 21 deg. avg. winter temp. with the coldest of spells being 5 - 10 deg. for 1 - 2 days a few times a year.

It is my WATER temp that is 31.3 (this morning at 6 am it measured 30.7).

Well,
I guess I just responded to a lot of it. I will complete it a little later.

I will post this mornings parameters shortly.

Thank you all for your imput, it is all being read and considered.

Once very serious thought that I am considering (AFTER I get the GB in and cycled) is to put a number of carp and a bunch of Tilapia in the pool. They will help with the algea control. Last summer I had Tilapia in there and I don't remember it being this severe.

Thanks again.

Tilapia would love to eat the algae, and would love your water temperatures. Not sure about carp.

Good man. Go build growbeds. And post pics of everything, not just dead fish.

readings from 6am this morning

pH -7.8 - 7.9 staying much more stable
ammonia - .25+ hard to read, but definately coming down
NO2 - .25 stable from last night, not up but not down yet either
NO3 - 5.0+ heading towards the next reading of 10 but not there, more than 5.0 though.

Down the road I am definately going to get a meter. These color charts are too hard to read accurately.

No more floaters since last night. Pump still filtering and aerating.

I am out ---- building GB's until they are done. I will check back then.

Hi Matthew
What are your night time air temps like?
If they are cool I`d be tempted to install a big fountain that just runs at night to knock the water temps down and add oxygen.
You could control it via a thermostat and a timeswitch.

Mathew I received an answer back from Felix Abayomi of EmeraldAnimals
Felix Abayomi (Bsc. Zoology)
Director,
Emerald Animals
(An Animal Information and Service Provider Firm)
here it is

Thank you for your mail. The website link you talked about is not shown in your mail, but from your description, the diseases the fishes have is called white spot disease and it could lead to a 100% mortality.

Treatment is simply with potassium permaganate, which he can purchase in pharmacy shops. He will bath them with it at 2mg per litre of water. The parasite causing the disease is difficult to treat as only those ones that have emerged into the water can be killed. Thus he has to repeat the treatment 3 times every other day.

To reduce stress in the fish, he should also do salting at 5g per liter of water. also be bathing for one hour.

To also take care of any opportunistic bacteria that may have also crept in during the attack of the white spot disease, he should them use oxytetracycline at 0.04g per litre of water. This should be for prolonged bath for at least a day.

I have his phone number and email address if you need those.

Then he followed up with this email on the algae problem. this has been discussed alreadyhere.

Let me answer the second part of your question here.

The Algae bloom is due to direct rays of sunlight into his ponds. There is nothing he can do to this except he roofs his ponds. I don't know about the use of bailey straws.

He should check his Ammonia and nitirite levels in his water. Those are really the problems. These causes depletion of oxygen in his water, thereby increasing the biological oxygen demand of the water system. The algea takes oxygen from water in the night and returns it in the day time for during photosynthesis.

Let him buy water test kits and test his water regularly and cover his ponds.

Thank you.

Folks,
Potassium Permanganate is VERY TOXIC. Please read up on it. I would -never- use it on fish I intended to eat. I would read up on oxytetracycline before using that, too. I doubt that either are approved for food fish. Also remember that any medications you use in the fish water is likely to be taken up by plants in the system. If you are raising or intend to raise food crops in the growbeds, or eat the fish in the system, you need to be willing to eat a couple spoonfuls of whatever you put in the system to treat the fish. To be very clear, that much potassium permanganate will probably kill you.

First and foremost, correct your conditions. Secondly, if you are going to treat for fish disease, just use -uniodized- salt. 5ppt (as recommended above) will probably kill the plants in your growbeds, but if you have a real mess, I suppose you could go that high. I would consider using 2ppt, and interestingly, I used to salt my outdoor pond to about 1.5ppt to help reduce algae. I had forgotten that, but it could ease the stress on the fish, and perhaps cut the algae a little.

Thanks Janet
I really think the biggest problem is the ammonia level at the temp and pH levels mentioned. Add to that the decreased DO at night finishing the already stressed fish off.

I would not use anything in a system tank including salt. That is just me.

I have seen pictures of white spot (ich) and it did not look quite the same as what Mathew has posted. I think Felix has not seen the photos nor read my description correctly and jumped to a conclusion of aquaria catfish such as corydoras or synodontis with ich.

I have emailed him again and will wait for his response. Perhaps the link made it through the mail this time and he can visit here.

Those marks are not ich by any stretch of the imagination. Most diseases will also cause a more asymmetrical effect. Given the matching white spots on the head, and that they were not fuzzy, I felt it was a pigmentation change due to stress. I would be even more sure of that if all the catfish had the same marks.

I would be very cautious about taking advice from someone who doesn't understand the full nature of our systems. We need to use organic remedies rather than blasting things with chemicals.

Yea i got them postage to usa to expensive

I wondered about that Mathew, that's why I was asking. It was the only temp I could see quoted.....

Sorry mate, but I think you've been slowly poaching those catfish for a while....... at 30 degrees water temp I think they're probably at their upper limit anyway.....

Way too stressed, combined as said with ammonia, pH and definitely low DO at those temps (in a a 3' pool).... then yep they're gunna get sick...

So stressed that their auto-immune systems are cactus......

Talapia sound like the go... they'd thrive in there....

Carp, catfish...... think you might be pushing them during summer IMHO

Good to hear everyones arrived at a concensus and you now have a plan of action.....

Hex's suggestion of stirring the water around overnight to cool it and aerate it is one worth looking at... along with the others