Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Niloc, I'm not up to date on rates of pay for aboriginals through the Social Security system... but my experience in outback communities in the past certainly never reflected any large remuneration difference between aboriginal pay rates and white pay rates...

Certainly not aware of the $80 thing..... can you clarify what the amount is and what it's allocated for???

The stealing of the land issue, IMHO is no longer applicable. The aboriginal were a mosty nomadic and comparitively primate culture with little or no sense of ownership. OK, that may not be such a bad thing, that is how they have lived for thousands of years, and no one is stopping them from living that way now.

However, whether it was the english, the dutch, the french or who ever, the continent of Australia was going to be settled. Now think how different it may have been if another country had claimed Australia. Would there have been more slavery, more genocide or could they have killed all of them. I am not saying what england did was right, but the settling of Australia was enevidable.

The aboriginal people believe they have every excuse in the world to behave and live the way they do. Our taxes pay for there houses and furniture, then it pays for the second and third houses after they trash the places. I am just saying there are more people less well off. I heard on the radio that aboriginal people get more welfare than handicapped and mentally challenge people, when they are perfectly able to work. Excluding the famous ones, how many aboriginals do you see working at your local coles, or butcher or post office. I can count them on one hand. Have any of you been taught by an aboriginal teacher, or even a cleaner? How many graduate highschool? A 20% unemployment rate for Aboriginals compared to 6% for non-aboriginals says a lot.

I am happy to say sorry for all the bad thoughts and racial comments I have made. But then I would have to apologize everyday, after I see the news, or see a group of them sniffing petrol or paint at the train station, or a bunch of kids throwing rocks at cars.

Tim, you're going to have to be careful with your choice of words and comments with a subject like this, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you made a typo in the first couple of sentences.. To say that indigenous do not have a sense of ownership is incorrect, that sort of attitude was one from back in the dark ages.. Back in the days when Australia was declared "terra nullius", in the time when Europeans had no concept of Aboriginal law, traditions and belief systems. The aboriginal people had a closer bond to the land than most Europeans will ever comprehend. But in typical conquering European fashion, unless there is a civilization strong enough to fight you off, it's up for grabs. And unless they have a value system based around similar ideals as your own, then you assume that they have no value system and are "stone age" or primitive.

And yes we are stopping them from living like that now, they are only just starting to get back some of their native lands, and they must still obey our laws..

Do a little research yourself, don't just swallow the misnomers you are fed up by commercial media and peers. And look with wide open eyes, not polarized blinkers. Aboriginals were not all nomadic, some were, some weren't, they had some extremely complex systems like the intermarrying between tribes. A different culture and set of values is no less valuable or less significant than the ones you may have been bought up with, it's just different.



Yes, it does say a lot.... A lot about the discrimination that they face when trying to find work? There's always a different side to the story depending from what side of the fence you're looking at it.


This reminds me of what jtjf_1 posted in the funny pictures thread.

WHERE DID THE WHITE MAN GO WRONG?

I disagree Tim......we have stopped them from living that way by introducing white mans law and making them live our ways. Maybe we dont see the aboriginals appointed to these positions you mentioned because of racisism getting in the way? lol you must come from a well of family to pass judgment on the aboriginals....I see alot of whities in the lower income areas around here that abuse the welfare system just as much....and cause just as much trouble if not more.

Am wondering if there was more integration then you would find more aboriginals working at the local supermarket etc...........am wondering how much of a chance they are REALLY given. I doubt that figures can tell you alot, I think maybe you would have to have experienced what goes on and why it goes on first hand, not that I have, Im just asking questions and I seriously doubt that tidy whities sitting at a PC reading about it sprouting facts n figures have any answers

Actually this thread is getting back to sustainability....
40-60000 years V 220years of desecration of the land...
I know who caused more damage....
and who had the best life style...
... almost like meany said- give up the cars, out of season crops, smokes, grog, guns, and have a tradition of respect for elders, tribal punishment, extended family, and a knowlege of the land that even the army take note of bush tucker/medicine...
fishing at times in the year when fish were plump and tasty...
...what did we do... some things were ..
and if you don't know will be shocked...like buring the kids up to their necks and kicking their heads of...even in the 70's going on shooting trips... forcing them over cliffs and what of our big southern island...
tassy where bountys were put on the heads of the indigenous.
Yes we took this place off them...and have predudices they/we don't understand...
sorry to be so blunt but this is what we did!
yes WE our fore fathers...most of whom where crims from the mother land... that no one wanted!
Don't crap on about that which you don't know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually early indigenous Australians caused a great deal of damage to the landscape, well they changed it at least.. Wiped out the megafauna that was here, and over centuries changed the vegetation to the point where it now relies on fire for revegetation..

If you can get your hands on a copy of "the future eaters" by Tim Flannery, do it.. A great read about the history of Gondwanaland from millions of years ago until now. I realize that that may not sound very exciting, but it's well worth it..

I'm going to have a very small chime in here. I VERY recently had a discussion about this. I must say that EB just addressed some of my main aruements, so i'll modify accordingly and tone down............

My crux was yes, we (8 generations ago?) did a very bad thing. I think its time to move on. If we don't already give them the opportunity to live the way they used to then we SHOULD. At the same time we should give them every oportunity to intergrate into our society (which i feel we do).

Basically my point is that there needs to be movement forward. Yes it happened, yes it was wrong. MOVE ON. sitting there whining about the wrongs that have been done to you serves NO purpose. There have been plenty of examples where people move on from bing shafted.

My.02 cents

Steve

Good points Steve.

We had and have much the same problem with both our Native Americans and our African Americans. (Only real diff is one was already here, and the other we imported.) In the end they both have gotten the short end of the stick!

As someone who is part Native American I can tell you that it sticks in my craw that for over two hundred years most Native American peoples were viewed as being less than human. In fact our country did not recognize them as having citizenship rights until the start of the twentieth century! (Ain't that swell, we saved the Pilgrims from starvation the first winter at Jamestown, but yet we got pushed out of most of our native lands and onto distant tracts in areas too formidable for the white settlers! Makes me laugh to think of all the Indians in Oklahoma who got rich from oil leases and all of the ones sucking up big money from white gamblers coming to the "Reservation" casinos!)

When I was a kid I loved to watch all of the John Wayne movies that came on the TV. My Dad usually left the room and went to do something else, I just thought it was because he had something he needed/wanted to do. Now, looking back on it, I can see that he was uncomfortable with the revisionist history that I was being indoctrinated with, but yet he was not inclined to teach me the truth. I had to find most of that out on my own.

A very popular movie here in the US about the late 1800's Australia is Quigley, Down Under. I don't know how many of you have seen the movie, but the jist of the story is an American cowboy/marksman gets a job in Australia for a ranch. What he doesn't realize until he arrives is that he has been hired to hunt down and kill the aboriginal peoples living on the ranch. He refuses, and suffers being harrassed and hunted by the ranch owner's other men. While the story is purely fictional, some of the facts do ring true. The aboriginals were viewed as less than human, like our Native Americans, and were hunted down just like them, and excluded to small tracts in areas deemed less than suitable for the white man's purposes.

While we can not change how we have treated people in the past we must make efforts to try and improve the current situation. I understand the statement that was made about the level of hostility and hatred that a white person feels when they are placed into a situation where they are the minority. Where I normally have to layover at work is a portion of a city that is primarily Black and Hispanic. Personally, I do not have anything against anyone of color, and do not feel that I have ever treated any of them differently than I would have anyone else, but yet I feel uncomfortable when I am the minority! I have gone into restaurants and felt like I was the last one to get service, that the help was intentionally rude or slow, and that I was being discriminated against. I have also gone into stores and felt the eyes staring at my back; "What's he doing in here? I bet he is either trying to score some drugs or pick up a sister! That's all those honkies want, to get stoned or l__d!" I have also felt like I was being sized up as a potential victim by a strong arm bandit; fortunately my size and demeanor has prevented that from happening, but some day I might meet with someone who is either desperate enough, crazy enough or stoned enough to try it.

I am sorry if I sound like a racist, for I am not. I am just being honest and relating some of my personal experiences, and I can state that I can understand how many minority people feel. When I was in Law Enforcement there was a dispeportionate (sp?) number of minorities who were either the victim of or the perpetrator of a crime. Do you remember on of the lines in Casablanca? "Gather the usual suspects!" Well, sometimes that was how it felt. All we did was go out and pick up the same 10 or 12 people and question them, usually it resulted in our getting a lead, and usually it was a minority that got charged. Were they always the ones who committed the crime? Based off of the information we gathered, they were the ones who most likely committed the crime, but the real problem becomes why were they so dispreportionally represented? Inherently no one group is more likely to commit a crime than another, but when you factor in the social and economic problems so many of them have, then it is easier to understand why so many minority individuals seem to exhibit Dirkhiem's theory of "Anomie". The theory contends that individuals who are socially and economically deprived are more likely to exhibit a greater degree of anger, resentment and frustration with society in general. This angst is then turned into criminal behavior, personality/mental disorders, and addictions.

While we can try, both as nations and individuals, to overcome the social problems that exist, the main thing that will probably help the most is time. Time not to forgot, but time to reconcile and reflect that "what happened then, happened then. What's happening now, is much more important and it is better."

Kevin

Yep, slowly but surely....

Nicely put Kevin.... I can only hope that we all get to the point of acceptance that allows us to do so.

C1,
I saw the comment over on Joyce's "Need For Prayer" thread, and I thought that you ought to know that one of the biggest problems here with gun violence stems from an ever increasing amount of anger, hostility, and criminality amoungst youthful individuals. If you do a careful examination of the statistics you will find that the US actually had lower crime rates when the gun laws were much more lax (pre-Gun Control Act of 1969). Since then we saw a steady increase in crimes until recently when a slight decline occurred. (Most experts believe that the decline is due to ageing and incarceration of the more violent criminals. The only negative side is there appears to be an ever increasing number of youthful offenders who are exhibiting greater and greater degrees of violence.) Today, the areas of the US with the greatest amount of gun violence are those where they have the greatest restrictions on gun ownership. As to the weapons most of the youthful criminals are choosing are ones that were either obtained illegally or that have been illegally converted from semi to fully automatic fire. We are now finding that most criminals do not have concerns about what laws they violate. If they are willing to rob a store, hijack a car or deal drugs they are also willing to violate the traffic laws, urinate in public and violate other minor/nuisance ordinances. The Police are now finding that if they pull over a car full of young people for a traffic offense, that more than likely one or more of them has a warrant for a serious offense out for them.
Kevin

I sincerely apologize for my choice of words.



BK: I don't wear tighty whites. I really resent your comment. I may be only young, but I read the paper(s), I have seen it first hand and my background has been very strong. I have strong morals and I am compassionate about the things I believe in. I don't consider my family to be rich in money and possessions but have worked hard.

Most of my views do come from person experiences. I went to school with many northern aboriginals (boarders) they were sincere and had a very positive attitude. In year 9 we had a huge discussion with them, their parents and elders. I learn't a lot from it. But that was the minority of them. None of the indigenous students in my year got to year 10.

Then, one of the teachers at my old school who worked very hard with all the indigenous students getting apprenticeships help with education, was beaten and almost killed by multiple 'individuals' in a parking lot. She stopped teaching because of it.

A teenager in my brothers year, killed himself and another passenger in a joy ride. He was 14 yo and was a stolen car.

Just recently, a colleague of mine had his house broken into, the furniture was torn up, all his food and drink consumed, defecation and urination in his sinks, over his furniture and carpet. A neighbor saw them all in the house, and called the police. His cleaning bill was over $2000 and damages in the thousands, the police said that they will most likely not find the intruders, apparently there was 13-14 of them.

I work at a school where the teachers try very hard to keep the students on track. Some should have been expelled months ago, but they keep giving chances for fear of them ending up and being lost in the public system. Most do not want to be there, and do not even try to get into apprenticeships. I have even been through the TAFE system, I saw a huge range of multiculturalism, but very few aboriginals. They even have special entry for them... is it still too hard? Do they want to make something of there lives, or are they too busy holding a grudge.

I think race has very little influence on employment. There are many black (non aboriginal) people in our society, many of them have worked hard to get there, but there are plenty of opportunities for them. I have worked in many jobs where there is a mix, of African, Indian, Pakistani, central American and asian. If we are such a racist nation, then why are some of the most successful people are foreign. The Asian population is still treated differently, they don;t get support from the government because of it, yet they can still put their heads down and work hard.

I think Steve summed it up nicely. Whats done is down, drop the chip on your shoulder, get a positive attitude and prove us all wrong. I don't condone what has happened to them in the past, I do not feel responsible because society was VERY different back then, even in the past 100 years.

We are a developing nation, the world is moving very fast. We acknowledge that they occupied (not owned) the land before we did, it is the nature of human beings to expand just like they did 60 or 80 millennia ago when they came here.

Fair enough Tim. I don't think the issue is really about personally feeling and/or shouldering the responsiblity for past actions.... more a desire that we just acknowledge it..... and I would HOPE that society is VERY different now in comparison to a 100 years ago..... I have some concerns as to whether or not this may be the case or where we might be trending.



Do we???? and what qualifies US for ownership any more than the Aboriginals....

Occupation.... nope, they were here before us.....

Custodianship and preservation of the land and natural ecosystems and environment........ definite nope on that one.....

Force, coercion, theft..... ?????

The fact is no one owns any land. It is our nature to take over and destroy each other for land. Is has happened forever and will continue for ever. The strongest nations will expand and conquer (English Empire, Spanish, the Mayans/Aztecs, the French, the Nazis). In the mindsets of the world leaders, land is a resource not property. From it they gain wealth. The more they have the greater their wealth.

I am not having a good run with interpretations.