Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

BBK, you made a good point;



Now if my memory serves me correctly, didn't your government recently outlaw the sale of liquor and pornography in the Aboriginal Tribal Areas, as well as suspend the authority of the local Tribal Police and send in the Army, in order to try and remedy child molestation?!!! From what all I have heard the situation is actually a result of societal problems with in the tribal areas. (Specifically; unemployment, depression, economic dependence upon the government, alchohol and drug dependency, and desintegration of the family and tribal systems.) Wouldn't the long term answer be economic development, increased tribal independence, counseling and treatment of persons with addiction problems, and reduced governmental interference? I realize that right now the government views the situation as being a raging fire that needs to be put out, but the problem is that long term, far reaching steps must be taken in order to prevent this from reoccurring. (Also, I have been curious as to what the ratio of child molestation charges per thousand are in tribal areas in comparision to non-tribal areas.) We have seen a long history here of social/criminal problems on our Native American Reservations, and are only coming to the realization that less interference is critical in resolving many of them. On those reservations where the native peoples have greater control, they have greater pride in themselves and fewer social problems. (However, there are instances of criminal activity involving non-natives against natives because of knowledge that the Tribal Police have limited judicial powers, and that most FBI and Federal District Attorneys are short on staff and interest in prosecuting crimes on Native Reservations.) [Federal Law acknowledges Native Reservations as seperate governmental districts from local and state governments, so any crime committed upon a Native Reservation is a Federal crime and is punishable only in a Federal District Court, with the exception of certain minor infractions which may be heard and adjudicated within a Tribal Court.]

As far as my background; I grew up in a rural area where hunting was an everyday pursuit. I hold a Bachelor of Science degree in Criminal Justice Administration and have worked as a law enforcement officer at both the state and federal levels. (I got out of it due to job stress. I couldn't take all the lieing and bovine defecation I saw happening within my agency.) I carried a firearm as a part of my profession for several years, and had to undergo regular training and qualification courses. I was never shot at, and never had to use my firearm against another person. I can tell you though that the majority of law enforcement officers I have known carry the belief that it is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I have known many current and prior members of our military, and I can tell you that without a doubt they all can tell you that a soldiers creedo is, we train for war, but pray for peace. (The majority of them, like law enforcement officers, spend lots of time and money to be ready when the going gets rough to keep your biscuits out of the fire!)

As to the statement that the Bolt Action Rifle was developed for sporting uses is WRONG!!! The first commonly acknowledged bolt action rifle was the Deyres Needle Gun. Up until that time there had been a number of rolling, falling and hinge action rifles used for both military and civilian uses, but the Deyres was the first bolt action and it was designed for the military! In fact, all of the improvements in firearm design are the result of military or self defense necessities. If you believe differently, than you need to spend some time doing some reading on the subject.

Personally, I don't believe anyone, aside from the military and law enforcement, has any legitimate need to own a fully automatic weapon or certain "destructive" devices. However, our constitution does not make any qualifications between need and want. It says, that the citizens, in order to maintain a well regulated militia, shall have the right to keep and bear arms. Now many people contend that the portion, in order to maintain a well regulated militia, means that only the members of the military have that given right. However, when you look at our history, all of the citizens of the United States who are of service age and free of legal restrictions preventing them from being in the military are a part of the militia! Thats right, even though we do not enlist in the military it was expected by the Founding Fathers that all able bodied men (women) would come to the defense of our nation in a time of war or insurrection. This philosophy went by the wayside many, many years ago, but it is still there, and our courts continue to recognize it.

The big difference between we Americans, and even our cousins in other nations springing from Great Britain, is that we fought for our independence and as such firmly believe that no single individual has supreme authority over another. That each person has a voice, and as such can use it to protest injustices that they percieve as happening against themselves and others. That we all have certain rights which no other person has the power to restrict, and that we can exert those rights with out fear of punishment or hinderance.

Kevin

Go Kev, we'll make an aussie of ya yet!

you the man Kevin!

your post was written so well. and well thought out, you know what you are talking about.

Nicely said Kev.... I love a well structured debate



Not a shot at you personally or even at the American people as a whole....

... but to call a spade a shovel Kev...... the rest of the world would probably scream a collective "bullshit" when comparing the admirable intentions you state to the actual hippocritical reality of US foreign policy.... and it's not just confined to the US, but most Western powers..

This is the crux and cause of almost the ENTIRE problems of the world.

Substantiated by military and economic coersion throughout the world and throughout recent history.

And sorry Kev, but it's backed solidly by a believe that WE are right, no more so than an inherent beleif by most Americans and many Australians.

Sadly and more alarmingly these days it's also the catchcry and driving obsession of the huge rabid rightwing religious nut-cases, racists, neo-cons and neo-nazis...

Edited:

Oh and I forgot to mention.....

Your comments with regard to the recent intervention into aboriginal lands in this country are spot on..... just goes to show that the era of " neo-colonial paternalism" and rascist/religous based ideologies and bigotries are still seething and lurking just below the surface of most Western countries.....

We in the West really have forgotten and betrayed the intention and meaning of "Liberalism"....

Western powers?????

the united nations seems to only mean anything to the u.s. leaders if it goes with u.s. policy, otherwise the un seems to be ignored.

Western countries - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world
eg. USA, UK, France, Europe, Australia etc.

The situation in our Aboriginal communities is a very tough and controversial predicament. If we leave them to their own devices then the molestation, violence and assaults would continue. The community try to punish these people in traditional ways, and death is sometimes a result. But as a civilized nation the government cannot morally turn a blind eye to the situation, not to mention the out cry from the rest of the aboriginal community.

On the other hand if we step in and ban alcohol the situation can become much worse. Clashes ensue over the punishment of the people. Violence rises over obtaining alcohol, people are hurt in confrontations. Aboriginal men have actually murdered their wives and children, and they just get lost in the legal system, where they would be killed in the traditional way.

Years ago aboriginals everywhere could not drink. I really think that people should have a license to drink, like Dubai. If you commit crimes, drive or break the law under the influence then you should have the right to drink revoked. But then just like guns, you can get alcohol illegally or from a friend.

The reliance of the aboriginals all over Australia on the government for support and money is another thing that they cannot take away. Really today aboriginal people have the same opportunities and ability to get educated and lead lives like everyone else. Its almost as if they are expected or do it because they can, or because that is the way their parents lived.

There is very little discrimination from white Australians against aboriginals but they seemed to think or believe that there is. Even going on the train, if you sit next to an aboriginal person they kick you off, if you don't they make a big deal about it, "Don't you want to sit next to a blackie, do you, you white c**t." It is not them as a people that causes the segregation, but their own attitude and actions.

The media coverage doesn't help the situation either. Every night on the news you here of old people being bashed and robbed in their own homes by aboriginal teenagers and even children. We hardly here about white on white assaults or incidents. Either there really is a huge issue or the media is feeding the naturally prejudice nature of Australians.

True Tim, sadly though that's exactly what nearly every governement in this country has done for a century....

And while I'm prepared to accept the need to act.... the removal of aboriginal land rights is a completely cynical agenda driven furphy that betrays the governments real ideological purpose....



Sorry Tim but I have to almost totally disagree with you here. Yes there is a degree of self "imposed" segregation and large amounts of distrust in attitudes between the aboriginal and white Australia.....

But there's also a compounding history of over a century of outright racism, colonialism, force and white "elitist" paternalism that forms a historical basis to aboriginal perceptions of discrimination and abuse....

Perhaps, it's because of the fact that I am originally an outsider raised in another country.... but I've also lived and travelled for many years throughtout Australia, with large amounts of time living and working in outback NSW, top end QLD and WA...

I'm not going to pretend to excuse my perceptions or views..... Australia is a racist country and has/does treat it's aboriginal peoples on a racist basis.... and until we come to grips with our inherent and latent racism and xenophobia, we will never be the nation that I believe this country can and should be.....



Sadly Tim here is I believe a real part of the problem, and even more sadly I believe that the current governement has directly, deliberately and purposefully pandered to and fueled the very "naturally prejudiced nature of Australians".....

We are at great risk of developing a society of intolerance, bigotry and division in this country.... based sadly on those inherent and latent tendencies which even you yourself have identified....

Again I cannot stress how important I believe the forthcoming election is to the future and direction of this country and our childrens futures.

Yep, I've gotta agree that racism is still very prevalent in Australia. Anyone who works in blue collar industries will hear it often, it seems to me like it's generally coming from people with a lack of education and understanding..

Yes there's also a lot of distrust from indigenous people, but while we still have a current generation of aboriginals that were forcibly taken from their parents when they were young, it's going to take a bit of understanding and work from white Australia to help put things right.. Especially when our leaders are still unwilling to admit it was wrong.

Say sorry Johnnie......

I agree that there is discrimination against aboriginals within the home and as a general mind set and attitude against them. I think in our minds and conversations we we are very racist. However we very rarely express our racism or hatred to the aboriginal people. We don't segregate schools or shops, we don't deny entry into places. I don't think many people racially abuse them for fear of being beaten up. Even the police hesitate to arrest or confront them.

I believe that our racism is based mostly on the fact that the aboriginals get so much from the government and give very little back to our society. The other basis for discrimination is fear, however again we do not express it publicly, just like the way we would avoid them in the street, but we would do it discreetly. Finally there is an anger that is shared by all white Australians because of their actions, the beatings, the muggings and the alcohol abuse. But how often to you witness racial hatred from white people?

Thankfully not that often.... but Cronulla was enough to scare the hell out of me and tarnish our reputations worldwide for many years to come....

The fact that we don't acknowledge or express our racism is I think the problem Tim.... then when we do ... like Cronulla... it's pent up repression becomes reflected in a really nasty form of loathing and aggression.

Understanding and reconciliation begins with a desire to acknowledge the past wrongs and a determination to work to ensure the future doesn't repeat or reflect them....

IMHO, we've still got a long way to go.....

An longer we leave it before we offer up some form of reconciliation because the main reason we do not apologize is because we feel we are not the ones to blame. I know for a fact that I am not related to any of the perpetrators of the stolen generation nor have I expressed any racial hatred, why should I say sorry? An secondly will everything just suddenly change for the better if we do?

Even the aboriginal call for reconciliation and an apology recognises that it is "symbolic" Tim.... noone of us is directly responsible for the sins of the past, but are and will be responsible for their continuation if we do not act....

There is no shame or personal condemnation attached to the act of formally "apologising" for the events of white mans history and treatment of aboriginals in this country and it's history....

It's merely intended, and acknowledged by the majority of Aboriginal elders and leaders as a starting point for reconciliation.... a clearing away of the past ill-wills and prejudices... a recognition that we accept that the aboriginals were the prior inhabitants and custodians of this land and that we did do them as a people grave injustice....

Will a "Sorry" solve all the problems overnight or even over time.... maybe not, certainly not overnight... but not doing so may perhaps be perceived as a deliberate slight and a sign of insincerity on our part....

I really don't see the problem with the concept of recognising the role our forefathers may have played in relation to the aboriginals of this country....

Is "sorry" really the "hardest word to say" ??????

What the government of the day did was pretty much genocide...

http://www.eniar.org/stolengenerations.html

Why should they go looking for work when theyre paid about double we whities get on the dole? Just one instance ,when the yearly show comes around the whities have to rely on their parents for money ,the natives of this country get 80 dollars from the government(us) to enjoy themselves!

who's land is it? who took it from them? why should we ( the white australians) be upset about the pissy handouts we give to them? we stole the land from them lol...why should they give back to our "white" society?

They shouldnt have to do anything except put their hand out for the land we need to give back.

I honestly dont think that "sorry" will fix anything