Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

If you're not sure just do a 50% water change and wait a day or two.... can always do the same again if need be .... then transfer...

I just remembered, a couple weeks ago when I got my first 4 koi from a local supplier, I had asked about parasites. He said they keep their tanks heavily salted. I didn't think about it when I released them into my tank , except for the jumper they are doing very well. I guess I got lucky, or it isn't stressful.


-Stevo

ETA: I just called the supplier and he said it's not a problem, no need to reduce salt levels gradually, it doesn't present much stress.

Koi are sensitive and shock easily. MOre than likely they shocked when you moved them from the shelter to your system, then you changed water which made it harder on them. Salt is like aleo-vera for fish. It wont hurt them and helps heal and sooth thier gills and scales. However it won't fix ich. You must heat the water and dose with medication. If it is not ich (which I guess it isn't) it is probably that they shocked and the salt will help, but again, refrain from changing water over 15% of system capacity. Koi take longer to recover. They are not a hardy fish and do poorly with rapid parameter change.

MF, salt has been proven time and time a gain to be a sutible treatement for ich. i had three outbreaks of ich in my early aquarium days, twice i treated with malachite green and killed the ich via the deaths of my fish. the last time i heated my tank to the fish's upper tolerance limit and used 3 ppt salt. i have never had a re-occurance of ich in that tank.

Unfortunatly there are all to many sites that don't agree with salt being used as a cure, preffering to list proprietary chemicals for treatment.

later on i'll lsit both a list and the reference website of a number of fungus and parasites that ARE killed by salt in a range of concentrations.

While I do not disagree Steve, my experience is heat and salt work but does not gaurantee it will stay gone. Some form of mild anti fungal chemical is needed to kill it once and for all. I've rid fish of ich with salt/heat, but I've also had it come back after not having killed the parasite.

The trick is to allow the salt treatment and temperature enough time, ich has three (or four?) distinct life cycles and is only vulnerable during one (regardless of medication)

the life cycle can be between days or weeks depending on temperature.

I have treated for twice the length of the life cycle @ temp

Sudden salinity change is also required. With ICH it is not so much the end point salinity but the ppt change in salinity as the salt cure relies on the free floating stage of ich's life relative inability to osmo-regulate.

0ppt salt to 3ppt salt effects a cure whle 2ppt salt to 3ppt may not.

Good salt info:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml

Mike, What type of anti fungal chemical can be used in AP without hurting anything?

-Stevo

I have found salt to be an effective treatment for ich and am quite certain that I was able to rid my system of it altogether. I was silly enough last season to buy my perch fingerlings and whack them into my aquarium that contained my 9/10 year old clown loaches. Being a scaleless fish, loaches are particularly susseptible to ich. By the time I noticed that I had it, the loaches were almost dead. The ich was very visible - they were coverred. 4ppt slat plus 29 degree celcuis temps for 2 weeks (a bit longer than needed - but wanted to be on safe side) rid my aquarium of ich and brought my fish back from the grave. I also treated the fish that I had got in the same batch that had gone straight into the pond - and rid the pond of ich also.

Salt has also served me well to treat fungus - or more likely the sites of fungal infection. The fungus is likely to be always present in the water, but will normally only affect fish if they are injured or run down. The salt is great for treating the injuries - such as lost scales, ulcers etc and in so doing seems to clear up the fungus very well. My silver perch were coverred in fungus within a couple of days of me getting them from the farm (they had a fair bit on them when I got them) and a salt treatment cleared it up within a couple of weeks, something that melafix was not able to do for me.

imho, nothing besides salt is truely safe to treat fish you want to eat. I'm sure the government has other opinions on that.

I agree, I would never add ICH treatment to fish that were part of the system. What Steve said makes sense. However, I've had ICH come back on my koi twice using just salt. That doesn't mean it isn't effective or that Steve is wrong, in fact he is right and more than likely I was not treating long enough.

Sorry for the slow reply Artistic. I had to go to DEN for 2 days. 8-(

Like they said its the caking agents and then the iodine that you want to avoid. And I find rock salt cheaper as well ( just a added bonus). I am Sure that your Koi where just super stressed out. They sounded like they where moved at least 2 times in a short period of time and into 3 differant water systems. And since you discribed the shelter water as less then suitable then that even makes it worse.

To move a koi out of the salt water just go the opposite of the start. Slowly change the water tell it mimics the best that you can to the main water.

Koi are my passion and what brought me to the AP world. The wife said that if I want expensive fish then they need to pay for them selves. So I offered lettuce as a peave offering.

If I dont know the answer to something I will do everything I can to get you a solid answer.

Shawn

I just buy swimming pool salt.
$5 for a nice big bag.
Is pure enuf hey
Human pickling grade!
I don't agree that you should always have salt in the system. I add it when theres a problem it can help with and water change it out when it's all clear. Brackish fish usually suffer no stress going between fresh and salt.... the rest usually do. I work off a 2 minute dip rule for a lot of tough fish but I think it's something to research in each case.
In any case freshwater fish do best in freshwater, if you keep your water fresh when a freshwater nasty trys to start $hite you can shock it with a salt treatment. If your water is salty then problem organisms that thrive in salty conditions will move in and flourish. If they get your fish adding more salt won't save ya
Not argueing against salt, it's like the oldest med on the planet but a lot of people missuse it very badly. I know most of you are rather switched on people tho so not a patronise hey. Just used to needing to cover angles... anyway use a hydrometer AND record salt doses and water changes as well. Use salts 'shock' value for shorter term higher concentration treatments rather than lingering small amounts.
Or not.... salt is like the most contreversial topic in fish world. If it's working for you keep it up!! I don't wanna cop heat fer wreckin it all lol.
I use salt to help wounds heal, make up dip treatments and disolve medications so I can throw them around in solid form.
I don't think it is very effective against ich.
I agree ya can't go using heavy metals on food fish.
And from top of head pimafix is alrite to treat wounds and pimafix is an alrite antifungal/bacterial... but ya can't think of a natural remedy except....
starve the parasites.
Remove the hosts (fish) and swap them from tank to tank. Hot swappin, heh heh. Anyway 'av a google on it but I have met discus breeders who use it a lot. I have tried before with some success but I was giving the (freshwater) fish a no longer than 2 minute dip in marine water between fish tank swaps. The tank is then stripped, dried, cleaned and set back up ready for the next swap. With goldfish you could use a series of clean new garbage bins each with an airstone in it maybe?
I am curious tho, if almost all of the good bacteria live in the growbed in aquaponics, then perhaps you could move all the fish from the pond and shut down the pump. Then tip in some chlorine and let it sit for (?) some time. Drain the pond and then refill ensuring ya use an extra nice serving of sodium thiosulphate to detox chlorine.
Chlorine and sodium thiosulphate are at least not heavy metals.

Dam whitespot, it's no fun when ya can't use malachite green hey


As to moving fish. So much stress can be avoided if they are bagged up (2/3 oxygen and 1/3 water) and then put into sealed styrofoam boxes. Or a tub with a battery powered airpump (or air powered filter if they are lucky). Koi do not change temperature well at all.
Once I get to the pond/tank I usually put them in a bucket with an airstone. Every few minutes I add a little bit of water. I usually take about 20 min at least to slowly bring the water to almost the same temp (and pH, salinity, nitrates etc) as the tank/pond. I suspect when you added the 50% of new water is when ya shocked them... but hard to know without all da boring details.
Anyway the big one, NEVER ADD THE WATER THE FISH CAME IN. Not if you can avoid it. Net the fish outta the bucket and add to tank/pond. Go tip the water on the normal dirt garden.
If it is a REALLY sensative fish you can syphone new water to its aerated bucket with an airstone and almost go watch a movie while it acclimates.