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 Post subject: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 18th, '16, 11:21 

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Greetings All,

We're new to aquaponics so I'm in the process of working out the design, details and sizing of our system. Due to space and materials already available I figured to start out one of the metal shelves we got from Sams Club for the plants and to build the tank next to it. Going by the usual rules of thumb I figured we'd need about 24 pounds of fish for the system.

We live in Alaska where tilapia are forbidden along with any other invasive species type of fish. So then I figured why not go with trout. I checked with our local hatchery and was told it would be next to impossible to get a permit for private use and was all but escorted to the door. No help there.

OK, so we can't raise fish for consumption, disappointing but no big deal we'll use guppies or gold fish. As a kid we had an aquarium with guppies so I know they breed like aquatic rabbits and any extras can go to our chickens. So the problem is how to figure the amount of guppies to use? How many guppies are there in a pound?

The mothers eat the young so would it be a good idea to add plastic plants for hiding places or would they be prolific enough to balance things out themselves?

What kind of problems might I expect with using guppies?

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 18th, '16, 16:54 
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Welcome to the forum Volk359 :wave:


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 19th, '16, 03:05 
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Do they prohibit species for ornamental possession (like tropical fish for aquariums, khoi, etc.) too? If not, then why can't you get some fish for an enclosed ornamental system. You can order catfish (and other species) from a farm in CA or maybe Oregon/Washington and have them shipped overnight. If you start with 30 then you can raise them to 1lb each in a year, bigger if they have space and food. TCLynx recommends 300 gallon minimum for catfish and says she can raise them to 5lbs in a year if I recall correctly.

If they happen to jump out or get caught in a net, then you may need to eat them.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 19th, '16, 08:24 

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Thanks, Scotty!

dstjohn99, will look into it a bit more but the impression I got from researching is smaller fish may be they way to go for us. I was given a name for a contact at Fish and Game, I'll look into that and report back.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 19th, '16, 08:33 
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Don't ask don't tell. It's been working for me in California, but I did harvest all my tilapia that I think were Oreochromus Niloticus since they are on the banned species list here. I'm sticking with the allowed Oreochromus Mossambicus, though they require warmer water.

Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 19th, '16, 16:26 
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Oops I already asked :) .

I'd like to thank to Samuel Rabung of the Alaska Department of Fish and Game for putting together this information which I'm certain took a fair portion of his time . First I asked him a number of questions regarding what is permitted in Alaska. His first reply gives you an excellent explanation overall of how the law works in Alaska. I've removed some spaces caused by email formatting and put in a few x's :wink: :) .

--------------------

Quote:
Good morning xxxx,


Alaska has very stringent rules about propagative activities for aquatic species. Importation of live finfish into the State, and finfish farming are not legal, with the exception of ornamental (nonfood) fish such as aquaria fish.

Alaska is a common property state, so native species belong to all the people. Any transport and possession is strictly regulated and live transport and possession of native species is not legal except under a permit for specific activities. There are only two permit types available that authorize transport, possession, propagation or rearing of finfish and they are limited to scientific and educational projects, or for nonprofit salmon hatcheries designed to contribute additional harvest for common property fisheries.

We receive a lot of inquiries from people who would like to operate personal aquaponics setups and unfortunately, unless they use ornamental fishes, it is illegal in Alaska under current laws.

I wish I had better news for you. I hope this is helpful.



Take care,

Sam


---------------------

I asked about sharing his email, about the situation dtsjohn suggested, and about what laws need to be changed so that food fish would be permitted and about whether they were based on cultural or disease issues. Here is his reply (The bold faced sections were highlighted in his email and are the sections that would need to change).

---------------------
Quote:
Sure, feel free to share as you see fit. The laws are based on a concern for disease introduction. Below is one of the primary regulations and definition of ornamental fish.



5 AAC 41.070. Prohibitions on importation and release of live fish.

(a) Except as provided in (b) — (d) of this section, no person may import any live fish into the state for purposes of stocking or rearing in the waters of the state.

(b) Live oysters native to and originating from the Pacific Coast of North America may be imported for aquaculture purposes, under a permit required by this chapter, and may be released into the waters of the state only if the

(1) broodstock is derived from oysters commercially cultured on the Pacific Coast of North America through three or more generations; and

(2) disease history or an inspection indicates no incidence of disease that is not indigenous to the state or is not considered to be a risk to indigenous stocks, and oyster health or marketability.

(c) Ornamental fish not raised for human consumption or sport fishing purposes may be imported into the state, but may not be reared in or released into the waters of the state. Fish wastes and waste water from ornamental fish may not be released directly into the waters of the state.

(d) Weathervane scallops originating from wild stocks or cultured stocks in the Southeastern Alaska and Yakutat Areas may be imported for aquaculture purposes and may be released only into the waters of the Southeastern Alaska and Yakutat Areas under a permit required by this chapter only if the

(1) broodstock was taken under the provisions of a permit issued by the department;

(2) broodstock was certified by the department’s fish pathology section before transport out of the state;

(3) broodstock was held continuously in a department-approved isolation facility;

(4) weathervane scallops proposed for import have been held continuously in a department-approved isolation facility before import into the state;

(5) disease history, or an inspection, of the weathervane scallops proposed for import indicates no incidence of a disease of transport significance.

(e) A person may not import, own, possess, breed, transport, distribute, release, purchase or sell within this state any species listed under 50 C.F.R. 16.13, as revised as of October 1, 2002, as an injurious live, or dead fish, mollusk, crustacean, or their eggs.

(In effect before 1988; am 9/19/90, Register 115; am 4/30/91, Register 118; am 8/8/2007, Register 183; am 2/24/2011, Register 197) Authority: AS 16.05.251



5 AAC 41.100. Definitions.

In addition to the definitions set out in AS 01.10.060 and AS 16.05.940, in 5 AAC 41.001 — 5 AAC 41.100

(4) “ornamental fish” means a fish commonly known as “tropical fish,” “aquarium fish,” or “goldfish,” which are imported, cultured, or sold in the state customarily for viewing in aquaria or for raising in artificial systems, and not customarily used for sport fishing or human consumption purposes;

(7) “fish” means any species of aquatic fish, invertebrate, and amphibian in any stage of their life cycle found in or introduced into the state, except where specifically designated finfish or shellfish.

(In effect before 1988; am 2/24/2011, Register 197) Authority: AS 16.05.251


---------------------------

I think there is an opportunity here to re-write the law so that certain non-native species that are often considered ornamentals could be grown for consumption in Recirculating Aquaponic systems. Like Channel Catfish, Tilapia (Tropical but blue tilapia can take lower temps), some types of Gouramis (tropical), and Oscars (tropical) to name just a few. The state would need some guarantees back like
1. Recirculating system with no water discharged directly to any of the states waterways.
2. Protection from predators to prevent incidental introduction of fish or diseases into state waterways.
3. For personal consumption.
4. Whether you're in an area prone to flooding might be important as well.
I'm not sure if they'd allow breeding and rearing your own fish to replace the ones consumed. Seems like it ought to be OK as long as your just raising a new batch to eat and not selling them but I don't know and they are very restrictive currently.

Right now though, it's definitely not legal to raise fish for consumption because by definition they are no longer considered an ornamental - that's how I read it anyway :dontknow: .

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 19th, '16, 16:46 
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One last thing. I didn't specifically ask about Tilapia but my understanding is that they are allowed in Alaska as an Ornamental as long as you don't eat them at least this is what Lakeway Tilapia has listed - https://lakewaytilapia.com/Tilapia_Lega ... _State.php

So you could have these if it would be easier than raising guppies. You might be able to control the population using an Oscar or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 20th, '16, 06:14 

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Wow, thanks Scotty for putting this together. Kudos to Samual Rabung who, like you said, most likely put a fair amount of time into his reply.

But, you know how it is, if you don't like the rules then get the rules changed. Unfortunately best case scenario that'd be a year minimum of not longer, speaking optimistically of course. A big negative is Alaska is very conscious about invasive species be it flora or fauna. My understanding is you can be cited for taking your boat from one waterway to another without draining/rinsing the bilge or even not washing off your boots before leaving. On the other hand Alaska is also becoming more and more conscious about self sustaining and raising our own food.

I'm sure a balance can be met but that would take time. Thanks for the link to the tilapia, the price doesn't seem too bad and I see they have free shipping! (wonder if that includes Alaska :think: )

In the meantime:

1. Part of my original question, can you give me an idea how many guppies I should plan for or would it come down to watching the ph and ammonia levels?

2. I like your suggestion of keeping an Oscar for population control but I'd be concerned about it wiping them out. Should I add hiding places? We're also considering using extra guppies as feed for our chickens anyway.

Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 20th, '16, 08:37 
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I understand and agree, nothing moves quickly with this sort of thing, it does take time and you don't always get the change that you want.

Volk359 wrote:
1. Part of my original question, can you give me an idea how many guppies I should plan for or would it come down to watching the ph and ammonia levels?


I think you're going to have to watch the ammonia and pH since they reproduce so often. Most of the guidelines here are for fish that aren't growing and multiplying at the same time

Volk359 wrote:
2. I like your suggestion of keeping an Oscar for population control but I'd be concerned about it wiping them out. Should I add hiding places?


I think that's a good idea but like you said there is a chance an Oscar would wipe out a bunch of guppies. Might want to see how many it eats but keep in mind it'll probably eat more in warmer water.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 20th, '16, 23:26 
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I know a lady that does aquaponics semi-commercially up in Alaska and she uses Koi as her primary fish. It sounds like you have some specific requirements for your fish. Just a friendly reminder, they are common carp, which is one of the most eaten type of fish (not that I am recommending you do that) but there is no reason you couldn't use them for your chickens as a supplemental protein source...


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 21st, '16, 03:01 
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Wow interesting stuff Scotty, great work! So it looks like Volk has lots of options so long as he is not raisining or discharging in state waters, and does not intend to consume the fish. Anyway Volk, back to your original question of how many guppies, having an oscar, etc.

According to a Purina website for Aquamax food, there are 227 to 5400 fish per pound for 1.5 - 2" fish. That's about the size of guppies, right? So for a max recommended stocking of 1 lb. of fish per 5 gallons of water you can do the math. I would start with a much lower density since as you mention they breed easily. Also definitely pro vide some hiding places for the babies. I don't think that an Oscar will be necessary as they will populate to the food available, and eat their own babies.

Just my thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 21st, '16, 09:10 
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With guppies, you might have problems with your weather unless you spend a stack of money on heating. They don't like colder waters. I'd go with goldfish or Koi.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '16, 01:09 
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dstjohn99 wrote:
Wow interesting stuff Scotty, great work! So it looks like Volk has lots of options so long as he is not raisining or discharging in state waters, and does not intend to consume the fish. Anyway Volk, back to your original question of how many guppies, having an oscar, etc.

According to a Purina website for Aquamax food, there are 227 to 5400 fish per pound for 1.5 - 2" fish. That's about the size of guppies, right? So for a max recommended stocking of 1 lb. of fish per 5 gallons of water you can do the math. I would start with a much lower density since as you mention they breed easily. Also definitely pro vide some hiding places for the babies. I don't think that an Oscar will be necessary as they will populate to the food available, and eat their own babies.

Just my thoughts.


So many typos...

watch out for raisining in state waters (raising)
and there are 224 to 500 fish per pound not 5400


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '16, 08:02 

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Well my wife despises raisins so it's just as well! ;-)

And we've been talking and researching, like Colum said, guppies and tilapia require warmer water than I'm willing to heat to especially with 250+ gallons of water. The setup will be kept in the garage where the ambient temperature in the winter is about 50, right around where goldfish and koi prefer so I'm thinking we'll probably go that route.


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 Post subject: Re: Using Guppies
PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '16, 14:19 
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I got an update from Sam Rabung and after reading the thread he says that Tilapia are considered food fish in Alaska so they would be a definite no go. I sent Lakeway an email. He hasn't mentioned Koi so I've sent a reply to Sam asking for information on that just to be sure.

Quote:
I was reading some of the thread and it seems that some people are considering Tilapia to be ornamentals. Alaska recognizes Tilapia to be a food fish.


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