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PostPosted: Jan 28th, '16, 21:56 

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I want to generate nano-bubbles in Reverse Osmosis (Fresh) water, but I'm having difficulty in finding out what I need to put it together.

My inspiration comes from this YouTube video. But this is saltwater and I'm told that it wouldn't work in fresh water.

Another video that illustrates this method: Carbon-based Ceramic Nanobubble Nozzle Technology

I plan on connecting 3 x Single XL Micro-pore's together with some type of glue. I would then cut a clear 33mm Outside diameter pipe (1-1∕4") in half (Which has an ID of 26 mm (3/32") and a strength of 16 bar — 3.5mm thick) to drill holes and fit the 3 nozzles of the Diffusers (Which have an OD of 22.2 cm | 7/8″) into the pipe. The two halves of the pipe would then be glued back together with a UPVC solvent cement, with the Diffusers inside.

The air would be supplied by a Hailea HAP-120 (120 Liter / min) and the water flow provided by a 1,800W | 210 L/min | Max. head 58m (5 Stage) water pump.

If the Diffusers, with their outside diameter (OD) of 22.2mm, were placed in a 26mm (ID) pipe, the remaining Area left for the water to flow through would be equivalent to a 11.341mm diameter circle. A pump that delivers 210 liters /min through a 11.341mm pipe, will give a water velocity of 124.73 Km/h.
Quote:
How velocity of water flow was calculated:

To calculate the speed at which water will flow around the gap between two different pipe sizes, we need to find the difference between the two diameters and use that to calculate the area with this.

Then enter this into the Diameter section on this website and you'll have your speed. The flow rate is how much water the pump moves. We have basically created our own theoretical pipe from the gap between the two pipes (3.8mm).
We can assume that the finest bubbles produced from the porous silica are 800 μm in diameter when formed in water that isn't moving.
In this system, the combined water flow and air pressure may be enough to generate 20 μm microbubbles.
Quote:
The CEO of NABS told me in an E-mail that the bubbles must be 20 microns or less for them to implode and make nanobubbles.
The outlet of the water pump (Without the metal attachment that comes with it) appears to be a Female socket with an ID of 30mm.
What is this metal piece that comes with the pump, which screws into the outlet, while providing it's own Female area on it's other side?

I suppose we can assume that the Female area of this attachment, which allows another piece to screw into it, also has an ID of 30mm.
Now I need to find a way to attach this to my (OD: 33mm | ID: 26mm) pipe.

What do I need for this?


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PostPosted: Jan 31st, '16, 10:45 
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What's your system like to need that sort of an air setup?


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PostPosted: Jan 31st, '16, 17:57 

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Colum Black-Byron wrote:
What's your system like to need that sort of an air setup?
A HPM 7 Day Digital Timer ($17.46) {Programming instructions for HPM D817/2 or 817/2} will turn on the two pumps (Water & Air) for 9 minutes each of the 14 times that the Timer switches on each day. In Australia, 1 Kwh at peak-hour costs 33 cents.

Air pump (240 Volts - 50Hz AC | 0.52 Amps) = 125 Wh
Water pump = 1,800 Wh (7.5 Amps)

Total: 1.925 Kw per hour
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33 cents x 1.925 Kw = 63.5 cents per hour

9 minutes x 14 = 126 min (2h & 6min)

(1.925 x 2 = 3.85) + (6% of 60 = 0.35) = 4.2 total

33 x 4.2 = 138.60 ($1.38 per day at 9 min for 14 times each day)
By creating micro bubbles, a large number of which I'm hoping will shrink to 20 μm, the bubbles will be less buoyant and remain in the water.
This way, the bubbles should accumulate and the pumps will only need to be turned on for a combined total of 2h and 6 minutes per day.

There will be 4 plants floating in a 35 Liter Reservoir, with two pipes sucking and expelling water at a speed that's between 9 and 15 Km/h.


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PostPosted: Jan 31st, '16, 18:07 
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I thought nano bubbles remained relatively stable (all theoretical) how is this going to assist gas exchange in the DWC? :) :)
My mouse is becoming unstable, that was one smile.


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PostPosted: Jan 31st, '16, 19:00 

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Sleepe wrote:
I thought nano bubbles remained relatively stable (all theoretical) how is this going to assist gas exchange in the DWC? :) :)
My mouse is becoming unstable, that was one smile.
The smaller a water bubble is, the higher their internal pressure becomes and the faster they shrink. Once they reach 20 μm, they are then capable of imploding (Cavitation). This is how Nano-bubbles are formed.


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PostPosted: Feb 1st, '16, 18:49 
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Let me get this right, you wish to create bubbles that will stay in the water for a longer time and therefore will allow more gas exchange. However under 20um the bubbles will implode (I take it that the theory is the gas exchange will be so quick it forms a vacuum?)
I may be wrong on this but how do the nano bubbles help?
There are bubblers on the market that do better than porous silica; I am not a great fan of gas exchange by air pumps and bubbles but this is a bit interesting. :)


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '16, 00:42 
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Sleepe wrote:
...I am not a great fan of gas exchange by air pumps and bubbles...:)


Your preferred method? I am guessing a trickle down of some type or RBC (Rotating BIO Contactor)?


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '16, 07:25 
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Getting slightly off topic however currently I run a waterfall to rocks to a very shallow stream to my pond, it was designed for prettiness rather than efficiency. The new system will require the water to fall 2.5' through a media which will not allow a straight path at a flow rather than a trickle. from the DWC to the FT via shallow gutters (bit like my current system). :)


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '16, 11:17 

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Sleepe wrote:
Let me get this right, you wish to create bubbles that will stay in the water for a longer time and therefore will allow more gas exchange. However under 20um the bubbles will implode (I take it that the theory is the gas exchange will be so quick it forms a vacuum?)
I may be wrong on this but how do the nano bubbles help?
There are bubblers on the market that do better than porous silica; I am not a great fan of gas exchange by air pumps and bubbles but this is a bit interesting. :)
If I run this system for 3 mins for 14 times each day, it'll cost 49c (50 cents) per day.
Compared to running the air-pump 24/7 which would cost 99 cents / day, I save 49% in power.

Just running the air-pump
125 wh x 24 h = 3.000 Kw
33 cents x 3 = 99 cents ($1)

Running both the water and air pumps
3 min x 14 = 42 min
1.925 Kwh x (42% of 60 min = 0.252) = 0.4851
33 cents x 0.4851 = (16 + 33 cents = 49 cents)


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '16, 15:12 
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Sorry Maitland I really have to do, possibly a shitload, of research on the subject of nano bubbles before I can comment on this further. :oops:


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '16, 23:27 

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Sleepe wrote:
Sorry Maitland I really have to do, possibly a shitload, of research on the subject of nano bubbles before I can comment on this further. :oops:

What I need to know is how to put this all together.

The pipe that the air-stone will be placed into is not a standard size (ID: 26mm | OD: 33mm) so the plumbers at tradelink have recommended that I use a Barbed Tube Fitting (32mm thread x 25.4mm barbed end) to take it back to a standard size of 32mm.

To get the air-stone into the pipe, I need to cut out a sleeve and drill holes for the nozzles to fit in.
Then I use PVC primer and high-pressure PVC cement to glue it back on, with the air-stones inside.

I had a bit of practice and found that when first cutting a sleeve, a fine toothed hacksaw is best when cutting at an angle of 20 degrees or less. This is necessary for creating a surface area so the sleeve and pipe can reconnect after the 1mm or so has been taken out.

It looks like I've got over that hurdle, but then there's the issue of the mesh-screen caps that will stop the roots from being drawn into the pump. The dimensions of the 35L reservoir is 34cm x 23cm x 63cm. You can see a picture of it here.

I was thinking of having many points where the pump will suck up water, by using several PVC Crosses attached together.
Let's say that the crosses are 25mm, what kind of mesh-screen cap would I need for that?


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PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '16, 07:31 
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Got away from the nanobubbles and actually looked at what you are using. There is no way you can run that equipment in an autopot reservoir, as soon as you turn it on you will vomit your plants and a lot of the water out the top. The injection of that much air at that speed will increase the volume dramatically (besides the actual force being generated).
Even if you could (which I don't believe for a moment) within seconds your water pump will be full of an air water mix.

I am not trying to be discouraging but that sort of thing requires a far larger system.

with a 35l reservoir you are creating a bubbler bucket and that could run on a simple 5w aquarium air pump. :)

Edit

And your air/water unit would act like a jet engine and try to take off.


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PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '16, 14:04 

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Sleepe wrote:
There is no way you can run that equipment in an autopot reservoir, as soon as you turn it on you will vomit your plants and a lot of the water out the top. The injection of that much air at that speed will increase the volume dramatically (besides the actual force being generated).
Even if you could (which I don't believe for a moment) within seconds your water pump will be full of an air water mix.

I am not trying to be discouraging but that sort of thing requires a far larger system.
And your air/water unit would act like a jet engine and try to take off.
The purpose of this experiment is to see whether Satoshi Anzai's method of sending a jet of fast-moving salt-water over a carbon-based ceramic air-stone (If the flow-rate is fast enough) will produce micro-bubbles in fresh water. I'm going to clamp the two pipes onto the reservoir and if need be, I'll use a drum instead.

Could you still help me find the mesh-screen caps for a 25mm or 32mm pipe end, if they exist?

I've also hit another snag. The Micro-Pore Single XL Diffuser by Deep Water Innovations is no longer in production and I can't find any that can be shipped to Australia. The solution I've decided, is to create my own by attaching two cylindrical Air-stones (Carbon Ceramic) to some kind of T-joint. The space around the joint will be filled with Glue and sanded off to make a smooth transition across the stone, while one end of the T-joint will stick out from the side. This may prove to be even better than the Micro-pore.

But I need to find a carbon-based ceramic similar to what Satoshi uses.


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PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '16, 14:35 
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Re the mesh what is it for and how small does it need to be? If it is just for stopping things being sucked in just cut a groove round the pipe and put some shadecloth over the end and fix with copper wire put round the groove and twisted, this also works for fine mesh stainless.
Re the carbon ceramic I don't know the fine bubblers are usually membrane (wood is good to but it *frack* up really quickly). :)
I am used to smashing water, not air, this is a little different.


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PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '16, 22:48 
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I thought micro/nano AIR bubbles were a bad thing... giving the fish "the bends" by supersaturating nitrogen into the water or something?

Isn't this whole thing only possible with pure O2 then?


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