Launching my new company Fish Farmers

Continuum

Hi Stuart,

Just some questions about the farm in general: (some I know and some I think others may want to know)

1. Where is the general area of the farm?
2. How much would you charge per square metre (assuming it was DWC - or per set of holes) for aquaponics growing space?
3. Will it be in a greenhouse? Will it be in two separate systems (for flowering plants and for leafy greens)

Stuart Chignell

Continuum wrote:

Hi Stuart,

Just some questions about the farm in general: (some I know and some I think others may want to know)

1. Where is the general area of the farm?

The general area we have been looking for land in is between Daylesford and Ballarat. As you guys would know for a AP system you don't need much land but we are trying to find the right block for the cooperative farm as well as our own needs.

We thought we had found the right place about a week ago but alas not. There are a number of properties we are seriously considering but because we are trying to accomodate as many people as possible the decision making process is a bit fraught.

We are getting very close to picking one and going with it. Unfortunately there is the possibility that as soon as we do that people will start coming out of the wood work to join the farm. There is the very real possibility that we will have to turn people away or that the land we buy won't suit them. There are two people in particular that I have in mind that have spoken to others of their interest but not me. I got the distinct impression that they were waiting to see if we go ahead before they express their interest.

Classic chicken and egg scenario. The more people we get on board NOW the more likely we can convince the bank to give us the loan NOW. I don't understand that reticence because while we do need people to sign a lease to essentially book their spot that lease would be conditional on the project going ahead. If it doesn't go ahead all you have lost is some ink on some paper.

What we are offering is cheap and secure access to land. If you have your own money sure you can buy land cheaply yourself if you have enough to buy 100 acers or more. The people we are looking to work with are those that would want a smaller acreage but don't want to pay $20 to $40k per acre to get it.

Quote:

2. How much would you charge per square metre (assuming it was DWC - or per set of holes) for aquaponics growing space?

I'm open to any idea that can help get this project off the ground but deciding on how much to charge people for this sort of service takes a fair bit of work. Without any expressions of interest in the idea its not something I've given much thought to. Also how we would accommodate people and therefore how much it would cost would depend on what people wanted. So its hard to put any sort of figure on it without a discussion first.

Quote:

3. Will it be in a greenhouse? Will it be in two separate systems (for flowering plants and for leafy greens)

My system will not be in a greenhouse to start with and will be mostly for non-fruiting plants. I have had some discussions about setting up a greenhouse for others to use or for us to share but for that disscussion to progress I'd need a bunch of people to actually commit in to get scale in order for it to be cost effective.

This is something I can give some prices on though.

A...

:funny1:

2nd hand ~2000m2 2.4m to the gutter multi bay poly tunnel with ZERO environmental control (apart from roll up ends) would be $9/m2 per year.
:funny1:

2000m2 Cravo retractable house would cost about $20/m2 to lease.
:funny1:

5000m2 Cravo retractable house would cost about $15/m2 to lease.

Those costs don't include anything but the house ready to put use. There would also be other costs like power, water, admin and stuff but that should give people a rough idea.

If people are interested then we can pursue that idea but it would require a critical mass of people to sign up. It is something we can do though. One of the advantages we have is the equity in my Mum's farm. We can use that to increase the loan IF we can demonstrate that we will get an income from it. I can't afford a greenhouse for myself because I can't afford the cost per m2 for a 2000m2 one. If there was enough interest we could afford a greenhouse up front.

Stuart Chignell

Stuart Chignell wrote:

Continuum wrote:

Hi Stuart,

Just some questions about the farm in general: (some I know and some I think others may want to know)

1. Where is the general area of the farm?

The general area we have been looking for land in is between Daylesford and Ballarat. As you guys would know for a AP system you don't need much land but we are trying to find the right block for the cooperative farm as well as our own needs.

We thought we had found the right place about a week ago but alas not. There are a number of properties we are seriously considering but because we are trying to accomodate as many people as possible the decision making process is a bit fraught.

We are getting very close to picking one and going with it. Unfortunately there is the possibility that as soon as we do that people will start coming out of the wood work to join the farm. There is the very real possibility that we will have to turn people away or that the land we buy won't suit them. There are two people in particular that I have in mind that have spoken to others of their interest but not me. I got the distinct impression that they were waiting to see if we go ahead before they express their interest.

Classic chicken and egg scenario. The more people we get on board NOW the more likely we can convince the bank to give us the loan NOW. I don't understand that reticence because while we do need people to sign a lease to essentially book their spot that lease would be conditional on the project going ahead. If it doesn't go ahead all you have lost is some ink on some paper.

The bank got in touch with me on Monday to ask how we were going and one of the key pieces of information I said we needed was a target.

Stuart asked wrote:

What value of leases do we need to get for you to gives us the loan?

He is going to get us a figure and once we have that we have a target to reach.

What we are offering is cheap and secure access to land. If you have your own money sure you can buy land cheaply yourself if you have enough to buy 100 acers or more. The people we are looking to work with are those that would want a smaller acreage but don't want to pay $20 to $40k per acre to get it.

Quote:

2. How much would you charge per square metre (assuming it was DWC - or per set of holes) for aquaponics growing space?

I'm open to any idea that can help get this project off the ground but deciding on how much to charge people for this sort of service takes a fair bit of work. Without any expressions of interest in the idea its not something I've given much thought to. Also how we would accommodate people and therefore how much it would cost would depend on what people wanted. So its hard to put any sort of figure on it without a discussion first.

Quote:

3. Will it be in a greenhouse? Will it be in two separate systems (for flowering plants and for leafy greens)

My system will not be in a greenhouse to start with and will be mostly for non-fruiting plants. I have had some discussions about setting up a greenhouse for others to use or for us to share but for that discussion to progress I'd need a bunch of people to actually commit in order to get scale in order for it to be cost effective.

This is something I can give some prices on though.

A...

:funny1:

2nd hand ~2000m2 2.4m to the gutter multi bay poly tunnel with ZERO environmental control (apart from roll up ends) would be $9/m2 per year.
:funny1:

2000m2 Cravo retractable house would cost about $20/m2 to lease.
:funny1:

5000m2 Cravo retractable house would cost about $15/m2 to lease.

Those costs don't include anything but the house ready to put use. There would also be other costs like power, water, admin and stuff but that should give people a rough idea.

If people are interested then we can pursue that idea but it would require a critical mass of people to sign up. It is something we can do though. One of the advantages we have is the equity in my Mum's farm. We can use that to increase the loan IF we can demonstrate that we will get an income from it. I can't afford a greenhouse for myself because I can't afford the cost per m2 for a 2000m2 one. If there was enough interest we could afford a greenhouse up front.

I'm going to continue pursuing the coop farm because we are generating some real excitement and with Earthworker coming alongside things are looking good.

http://earthworkercooperative.com.au/

Food&Fish

All I can say is good luck I know you will succeed

Food&Fish

I tried to quote but it dident come out
read my last post
Quote Great area Is there a good year round stream with a water right in that area
You mentioned you would like to attract micro brewers and cheese makers they need lots of good water

What happened to the large green house you got for the first phrase of your project

Stuart Chignell

Food&Fish wrote:

All I can say is good luck I know you will succeed

Thanks Miln. I'm sure we will get it to work its just what form it will take.

At the Deep Winter Agrarian Gathering https://www.facebook.com/groups/734787059972703/?fref=ts the biggest impediment to people getting into farming was access to land followed by access to capital.

There was one guy in the Blue Mountains that was leasing 1 acre and giving 10% of his gross to his landlord. He was doing everything himself from ground prep to sales and getting a premium for everything because of his story, energy and quality of the produce. Since he was grossing 200k that means he was paying $20k for his lease. I thought he must of been willing to pay that because he was close to his market. He said he was but then he said his market was Sydney over an hours drive away.

Thanks to my Mum we have access to capital. With that we are offering people access to land and even the potential of some cash because I'll need help building my system and as we build up labour to run it.

I'm sure there are people out there who would want desperately what we are offering they just need to find out about us.

Stuart Chignell

Food&Fish wrote:

I tried to quote but it dident come out
read my last post
Quote Great area Is there a good year round stream with a water right in that area
You mentioned you would like to attract micro brewers and cheese makers they need lots of good water

What happened to the large green house you got for the first phrase of your project

Anywhere we do end up will have good water in some form whether that be a bore, water course or storage. We don't need much but others will.

And we do have a micro brewery committed

MartinC

It's great seeing all your updates and the progress you are making Stu. Don't let anything stop you, I really believe you can do it.

:thumbleft:

FarmingFish

In many aspects I am in the same boat with you. Good luck with your project and great job with your brand logo. It looks fantastic!

Stuart Chignell

I'm stuck in a catch 22 or chicken and egg scenario with at least one bank and it looks like the same will be true of another bank.

Another bank that was initially very supportive but have said they can't give us a loan but have offered some very useful suggestions of what to do next.

One them went like this:

Banker wrote:

Have you though about approaching accounting firms?

There is a lot of money floating about in self managed super funds that is trapped in very low yielding investments. The accountants that are managing these super funds need investments that can generate higher yields but are not too risky. Your project fits the bill as its only our lack of experience with either aquaculture or hydroponics that prevents us from helping you. Most of our clients are graziers or croppers.
I'm going to talk to some people I know and try and get you some names of people to talk to.

So based on that conversation I'm preparing some ways we might handle such investment. Before I start talking to the accounting firms this guy is putting me in touch with and that I already know I'm going to talk to a friends and family first.

I'm writing a post for friends and family that I will post on FB (with private security settings rather than public as I normally do) so those of you who I know here on FB will see that shortly I can't post it here or anywhere else publicly because it is illegal to "advertise" for investment funds without the appropriate regulatory documents.

If anyone is interested in supporting us you can "express your interest" and then we can legally talk to you about what our current plan is.

I've tried so hard to do this through conventional financial means and it is still possible that one of the banks will come through in the next week or two but I'm not holding my breath.

earthbound

My standard industry super is returning 13% over the last 3 years and 10% over the last 5 years. A self managed super fund would want to return similar rates if not better, or perhaps people have other reasons to be self managed like investing in their own property etc.. That's a big jump up from standard mortgage rates at the moment if you're looking at borrowing...

Stuart Chignell

If needs must....

However those are your average rates. Most super funds have a mix of more secure lower return investments in them as well.

The land component and the collateral we have have means that its possible to talk about secured as distinct from unsecured investments.

Continuum

So you are not too risky, and yet they will not fund you?

Nice one.

Continuum

Maybe you need to call yourself a mining company and try to borrow tens of millions instead.

Then you would have a look in.

Stuart Chignell

Continuum wrote:

So you are not too risky, and yet they will not fund you?

Nice one.

Yeah go figure.

Another bank I'm dealing with has told me that the people wanting to sublet the land we would buy and the long term leases represent an "unacceptable risk in the even that they need to liquidate the property".

I'm hoping if we can raise enough private funds the bank will give us the rest. However, I'm not adverse to the idea of raising all that we need and telling them to go jump. As soon as we show we don't need them they will be all over us.

Backyard Aquaponics A place to discuss aquaponics

Launching my new company Fish Farmers

Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics