Conversations with a Really Smart Guy (RSG)

steve

poor little bacterias, forced to be on the wagon..................

EffigyOfFaith

So it looks like these microbes gain energy by moving electrons form organic compounds (in the above equasion lactate) to dumping them on rust, forming Fe2+ (yay) water, bicarbonate and acetate. So to make an iron chelator the bacteria must be supplied with. Rust, carbon compounds, and be maintained in a anaerobic enviroment. A slow moving flow through sand combined with the organics would give the anaerobic via biological oxygen demand. A nice mixed culture from swamp muck should provide plenty of microbes.

RupertofOZ

fair nuff too... but burying apple peel, fruit scraps in the growbeds... that couldn't harm could it???

I say bury... coz otherwise any benefit will probably be negated by a fruitfly explosion

steve

thanx eff, saved me from looking up the formula for lactate

keep in mind the minute quantities of Fe that we are talking about, and hence the correspondingly minute quantities of all the other constituents............

janethesselberth

Quote:

"4Fe(OH)3 + CH3CHOHCOO- + 7H+→ 4Fe2+ + CH3COO- + HCO3- + 10H2O"

Oh sure, that makes sense.....(uhmmmm, not really

)

Would you give that to us in English now, EF?

I see you're a Lab Tech, EF. Would that be at Perdue? Great school. My folks both went there, and both grandfathers taught there. One in Civil Engineering and one in Electronics.

janethesselberth

Wow, this thread is moving fast! I was really slow posting there!

njh

It says that rust + lactate + acid forms an equilibrium with dissolved iron(2), acetate, bicarbonate and water; the arrow suggests that it tends to all end upon the right.

So we have a process, an energy source and self regulation. Sounds excellent.

Incidently, I wonder if milk would be a good way to get it started - it provides an excellent substrate for bacteria, and a supply of lactate to get the process moving. Anyone want to try a rusty milkshake?

janethesselberth

Hmmm. One of the ways to get moss to grow on a terracotta pot is to make a moss milkshake and paint that on the pot. Milk makes a good substrate for moss spores, too.

I need to get my nitrate level back down before I think I can expect this to work, but I will construct my BIC over the next couple days. I'm going to keep it small. I collected all the rusty stuff in my nail/screw/gadget drawers and came up with a double-handful of rust sources. I'll try putting in a mix of activated charcoal pellets and sand with the rusty stuff. Maybe I could soak the charcoal in milk? Other than that, I don't know how to make the milk stay put. My goal is to make the BIC in the bottom 2 inches (5cm) of a 4 inch (10cm) diameter piece of vertical PVC. If it stinks up the house, I can get most of it back out pretty easily.

EllKayBee

steve wrote:

So.....................who have we lost on this thread so far..................

I thought Mon would be in his element here :shock:

(don't worry Mon, I'm being kinda quiet also :wink:

, spoonful of good old chelated iron a month man :lol:

)

Stuart Chignell

From what the Really Smart Guy said the organic waste from the FT will provide the carbon to feed the reaction. If true that would mean that we wouldn't have to add other stuff to get the process to work.

Someone suggested designing a system such that it didn't fully empty, if this was coupled with a finer medium (sand?) to inhibit water exchange add some lumps of iron in the sand and that might do the trick.

However, this would be likely to create an evirionment in the bottom of the GB that every other system design I've looked at is trying to avoid.

janethesselberth

My system already doesn't fully empty. The drains from the GBs are on the sides because that was where Rubbermaid put them. Hence, the autosiphons kick off when there is still a bit of water left. While I wouldn't put sand 2 inches deep in the whole grow bed, I am willing to try 12 square inches for a total of 24 cubic inches. (OK, so I'm bored and I like to tinker.)

emsjoflo

Quote:

I'll try putting in a mix of activated charcoal pellets and sand with the rusty stuff. Maybe I could soak the charcoal in milk? Other than that, I don't know how to make the milk stay put. My goal is to make the BIC in the bottom 2 inches (5cm) of a 4 inch (10cm) diameter piece of vertical PVC. If it stinks up the house, I can get most of it back out pretty easily.

Soaking activated charcoal in milk is a good idea. Activated charcoal has lots of nooks and crannies for the milk to hide. I doubt if it will stink up the house because you'll have much more aerobic area than anaerobic. That being said, I seem to remember that Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S) bacteria work in anaerobic conditions and are somehow related to the iron bacteria.

emsjoflo

Here is a quote from http://www.edstrom.com/DocLib/MI4146.pdf

Quote:

Sulfate-reducing bacteria (SRBs) are another source of hydrogen sulfide in water. These
bacteria live where there is little or no oxygen and convert sulfate and other sulfur compounds
into hydrogen sulfide. SRBs are often found inside thick, iron bacteria
incrustations.
Like dissolved iron and manganese, hydrogen sulfide in water supplies can also be
treated for removal by chemical oxidizing agents like chlorine. Like iron bacteria, SRBs
can be controlled by chlorination, periodic flushing, and eliminating any dead-end
lengths of piping.

Another quote

Quote:

The term sulfur bacteria includes two types of organisms. Sulfur oxidizers are aerobic, meaning they need oxygen to live.
They convert sulfide compounds into elemental sulfur, resulting in a slime mat. Sulfate reducers are anaerobic, meaning
they live without any oxygen. They convert sulfur compounds into hydrogen sulfide gas and other by-products.
Hydrogen sulfide has a distinctive rotten egg odor and is highly corrosive to metal and concrete. Sulfate reducers are
often found inside thick iron bacteria slime mats. They may cause the water to turn black in color.
Manganese bacteria are often found with iron bacteria because manganese is often found with iron in groundwater. They
will cause black stains in plumbing fixtures and laundry instead of the red stains associated with iron. These bacteria also
create a black slime mat or give the water a black color.

http://www.co.washington.mn.us/client_f ... cteria.pdf

janethesselberth

That sounds downright stinky. If this were outside, that would be one thing, but this is in the sunroom--right off the family room. Hmmm...maybe no sand and just do the carbon and rely more on the anaerobic micro-environments rather than creating an anaerobic mini-environment.

Time to re-think.....

njh

We had that black stuff in the bathroom vanity drain pipe

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Conversations with a Really Smart Guy (RSG)

Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics