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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 08:55 
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EB- Not changing goal posts. My reply was a response to this statement: "There is no major R&D needed, we dont need to develop new types of plants."

I disagree with that statement, and used a prominent local ag scientist to bring up some valid points regarding humans who have developed plants that " contain DNA and with no to few exceptions, were and are deliberately modified by humankind."

I understand the difference between traditional genetic modifications and the method using a virus to introduce the new gene. I'm concerned about the possible implications, but in my mind- feeble as it may seem. I'm not convinced that the risk out weighs the possible rewards. Corporate profits aside, it seems like the SCIENCE behind the techniques could prove instrumental in feeding the billions and billions of people. ( As Colum had suggested earlier) I'm still researching and welcome any scientific journals and reviews...from both sides.

I do believe that here at least, the almost hysteria over GMO crops is probably based more on Facebook memes and fallacy, then science based facts.

I have researched organic farming methods, composting, permaculture, biodynamic agriculture, vermiculite, and IPM. The last of which I have been doing for over 30 years. I believe that on a small to medium scale, these options offer a great option to chemical pesticides and fertilizers. I don't see them as an economically viable option for large farms...at this time.

I also don't like the attitude that some people have that almost equates to: Science= bad. Nature= good. It's all a bit to simplistic for me. If there's one thing I have learned in 54 years, it's that things are seldom as they seem, and that very few things are just black and white, but all kinds of shades of grey.


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 09:05 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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coachchris wrote:
Corporate profits aside, it seems like the SCIENCE behind the techniques could prove instrumental in feeding the billions and billions of people. ( As Colum had suggested earlier) I'm still researching and welcome any scientific journals and reviews...from both sides.

Its not growing food that is the problem we need to solve. We already grow WAY more food than we need to feed EVERYONE in the world. The problem is access to that food, distribution of that food. An estimated 50% of food is thrown away. If Monsanto was about helping people these are the problems they would be dealing with.

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I have researched organic farming methods, composting, permaculture, biodynamic agriculture, vermiculite, and IPM. The last of which I have been doing for over 30 years. I believe that on a small to medium scale, these options offer a great option to chemical pesticides and fertilizers. I don't see them as an economically viable option for large farms...at this time.


I can't speak about America but in Australia we have had some large scale organic farmers for about 5 years now. The guy I referred to above runs his farm in a joint venture with an Investment fund. You can't get more mainstream than that. We are talking close to a thousand acres. Just down the road from me is an organic root grower who crops about 200 acres with an additional 500 or so for sheep. Its possible and its being done.


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 09:46 
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Thanks for that info Stu. Upon further investigation, there are several large, corporate Organic farms that have several thousand acres here as well. Some have been doing business since the 80's. Most, from what I've seen, also have traditional farming on substantially larger farms in addition to their Organic operations.

You guys actually have a larger percent of Organic farms then here in the states.


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 10:55 
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ffs. You're still trying to twist things. Do you call your kids gmo's as well?


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 11:07 
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Part of the problem with GMOs is the unintended consequences. Early on in this discussion Colum gave an example of an apple that could store water like a cactus. With it you could use currently unusable land. While it sounds great on the surface you have to recognize that plants change the environment they are in. Trees use huge amounts of water and even though you might think you'll control where it grows over time this is not what happens. Here's an example that occured with a non GMO here in Oregon - http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2013/02/juniper_invasion_marring_orego.html

I haven't decided one way or the other on GMO's but I do know I would like the choice :dontknow:


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 11:28 
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earthbound wrote:
ffs. You're still trying to twist things. Do you call your kids gmo's as well?


I've seen some ferals around that I think would count.

But I do agree that cross breeding the maize plant is modifiying the genetics of the plant by human intervention, otherwise they'd still be their original plants. It's just we can now do it on a smaller genetic scale, and can modify it with far different genes than it could happen before, which is where the danger comes in.

The point that I make is that GMO has potential, but it's not there yet, we're not going to make apple cactus plants yet.

Computers will continue to advance, and our ability to understand genetics and DNA will continue to advance. We'll be able to turn on or off certain genes, and know what the effects will be through a computer simulation, and side affects. But we're not there yet.

It needs more study and advancements, and understanding. Which isn't going to come cheap or easy, and without investment, and some sort of return on investment, it's not going to happen. But I'm not saying we should be stupid or reckless with it either, which I'm sure some companies have done, but there should be something stopping them from doing it, or in a very controlled envirnment where the changed genetics can't escape.

Demonising and picketing anything that says 'GMO' won't further advancements.

I know others have said that we should build up our current farming areas, and I don't disagree with it. But what about desert regions, where it's just sand or clay, and nothing much grows there, where the area is pretty much useless. What if plants could be developed to survive there? And create a viable ecosystem?

http://www.ted.com/talks/willie_smits_r ... anguage=en

Something like that (really interesting doco, and not about GMO BTW), but on a larger scale in a desert region, and without as much human direct planting. Imagine turning the Saraha desert into a lush grassy region, with a modified grass that'll thrive in the conditions/sand, and then die out when it's created a top soil and allow other plants to take over.


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 11:37 
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@scotty: trees use a lot of water yes, but they also store a lot of water, water trees suck up is not "lost" like people make out, like the authorities in that article made out ("the water comes back")

Borneo is a very good example of this, the forest there is so large and sucks up so much water that the trees create thier own rain, they do not simply rely on clouds coming over and watering them, they create thier own self sustaining watering system.


Colum, as for the desert areas, read that article i posted.
It does not only pertain to areas of good ground that we have destroyed, it pertains to all lands (except the sand dunes of the arab lands maybe, but it would have potential there too)

What would happen as far as making it a "viable ecosystem" is all it wosuld do is destroy what IS a viable eco system and make it into what humans BELIEVE is a viable ecosystem..... there are many, many animals in the deserts, just because you dont see them doesnt mean they arent there.
Is it ok to force all those creature to go extinct? why should those creatures die before the starving people that we are trying to feed by condeming these desert animals?

There is never simple solution, actually there is, the simple solution is dont *frack* with things you dont understand (we dont understand 99% of how things work) and dont over breed. Simple.


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 12:22 
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My point is that they change their environment. Just because the water comes back when we intervene is meaningless to this point and the storage of the water means that it is not necessarily available to the native flora and fauna that might have originally had access.


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 14:13 
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http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/08/04/hr-1599-bans-gmo-labeling-laws.aspx?e_cid=20150804Z3_DNL_art_1&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20150804Z3&et_cid=DM81350&et_rid=1062299249

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By Dr. Mercola

On July 23, 2015, the US House of Representatives passed HR 1599,1 ironically misnamed "The Safe and Accurate Food Labeling Act"2,3,4 more commonly referred to as the "Deny Americans the Right to Know" or DARK Act.

Despite heavy opposition, the measure was approved 275-150.

The “DARK” Act (HR 1599) specifically preempts states’ rights to create their own GMO food labeling laws and, if passed by the Senate, will effectively block Vermont’s GMO labeling law, set to take effect in 2016.

This is a significant blow to Americans’ right to truthful and transparent information about the food we eat, and Republican dissention in the Senate is our last hope to put a stop to this latest and most monstrous incarnation of the “Monsanto Protection Act.”

Pro-GMO Forces Spent Nearly $64 MILLION on Lobbying This Bill to Pass the House

According to a report5 by the Environmental Working Group (EWG), food and biotechnology companies spent $63.6 million in 2014 to lobby specifically for this kind of anti-labeling legislation. That’s nearly three times the amount spent on anti-labeling lobbying efforts in 2013.

Of the $25.4 million spent by the Grocery Manufacturers Association for GMO related lobbying last year, nearly half ($13.3 million) came from Coca-Cola and PepsiCo. These numbers dwarf those of the pro-labeling lobby, which spent a mere $2.6 million in 2014.

The report also notes that between 2012 and 2014, labeling opponents spent $105.8 million to defeat GMO labeling ballot initiatives in California, Washington, Colorado, and Oregon, and that doesn’t even include funds used to lobby state legislatures.

HR 1599 Eliminates State Rights

In addition to barring states from creating their own food labeling requirements for genetically modified organisms (GMOs), HR 1599, introduced by Rep. Pompeo, also preempts any and all state and local regulation of GE crops, and further weakens federal oversight.6


Moreover, rather than simply labeling foods containing genetically engineered (GE) ingredients, the bill calls for the creation of a USDA non-GMO certification program similar to its National Organic Program — essentially shifting all of the costs over to those who want to declare that their foods are not GMO.

This system is as backwards as it gets. If GMOs were labeled, as they rightfully should be, there would be no need for GMO-free labeling, which was originally nothing more than a workaround to give consumers what they want — the right to make an informed purchasing decision.

The basic premise and purpose of general food labeling is to inform you of what’s in the food you’re buying; its basic ingredients and additives — not what’s NOT in the food (unless it relates to a known health risk, such as peanut allergy or gluten intolerance).

Due to industry manipulation aimed at hiding controversial and potentially hazardous ingredients and residues, we’ve seen this shift in burden, starting with non-RBGH labels for dairy products using milk from cows not given synthetic, genetically engineered recombinant bovine growth hormones, which have been linked to cancer.

Now any food that does not contain a man-made genetic experiment will be forced to declare that they’re “normal” on the label, or be assumed to contain GMOs. It’s completely nonsensical and the only beneficiaries of such a convoluted, backward system are the biotechnology and the processed food industries.

GMO Salmon Labeling OK’d

Interestingly, just days before HR 1599 was passed by the House of Representatives, a provision was added to a Senate spending bill for the Agriculture Department and Food and Drug Administration (FDA) that requires genetically engineered salmon to be labeled.

As reported by AgriPulse:7

“The... biotech salmon labeling requirement are not in the House bill. The Senate committee approved both provisions without a roll-call vote. Differences between the two bills will have to be worked out later between Senate and House negotiators.

The salmon labeling requirement proposed by Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, would add a wrinkle to the congressional debate over labeling for genetically engineered crops.

Murkowski told colleagues that farmers shouldn't be concerned that the salmon labeling would set a precedent for labeling biotech crops. ‘Corn doesn't swim from one field to another and propagate with other corn in another state. Fish move. Fish escape,’ she said.”

The labeling of GE salmon is a perfect example of everything that’s wrong with HR 1599, and why the Senate should not pass it when the time comes. Whose responsibility is it to label their fish? Should traditional salmon suppliers be forced to certify theirs as non-GMO, which HR 1599 would require, or should the transgenic fish (which has been engineered with eel genes to make it grow three times faster) be labeled as genetically engineered?

The cost and burden for proper identification really belongs with the transgenic species, which has never existed in nature before; not the traditional fish you would expect to purchase when buying a package labeled “salmon.”
........etc........


Talk about a bucket of worms


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 14:38 
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I disagree. :)


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 14:41 
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sleepe just here to cause trouble. :wave:


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 14:53 
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Count me in. :wave:


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 15:09 
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Sleepe wrote:
I lost interest after floating rafts in the title. :)


I'm going to have to think about renaming this thread "Floating Rafts" :thumbright:


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 15:15 
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Could always call it 'Sinking Rafts'. :)


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PostPosted: Aug 5th, '15, 19:08 
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For the record, i emailed and called my congressional representatives and told them to vote against 2.34. It didn't help...to much corporate money to buy votes.


I'm still in Culum's boat regarding continued research and study. I also would prefer to know if my food has GM food. You can pretty much assume that about every corn & soy product does.

At least when eat my GM corn chips, I'm eating them with my AP grown No Pussy Hot Sauce. :D


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