Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I have lost 130 fish in the span of a week. everything was fine and working well... not over feeding, I am using a intex ring inflatable kiddy pool about 500gallons, I have four half barrels for my start out beds, and I have hydron for my grow media. My issue is I my PH is 8.8 and won't come down.. I have tried everything from vinager to pond balance, and conditioners. I am on a well, water was filtered prior to being used and conditioned.. I am at a compete loss and right now I am running the system fishless. My plants are ok.. but not great. My ammonia is 2 parts per million, Nitrite 0 and nitrate 0. (Not sure on hardness) A friend of mine cleaned their aquarium and I took their filter cartridge, and some of the water to help bring up the bacteria count again.. as I have done a complete system drain, fushed and airated the growbeds without taking out the plants (they are fine)... this is a new system, I started it back in April. I am also in Canada and it is inside a green house...

I have a line on white talapia, and trout.. but I don't dare add any since the all the fish i had for free including two plecos that were 16" long... all died..(i was not impressed)... I am at an absolute loss here, I am in New Brunswick Canada. I had the gentleman that is selling the talapia say it was the hydron being the cause.. could this be the case? It was rinsed really well... I spent $250 on hydron.. I really don't want to get rid of it if thats whats causing my PH to be super high.....

Hi
Loosing fish sucks! I am sorry.
Can I suggest one course of action.
Read the IBC of aquaponics.
Inflatable pools are great for short term use. Consider something more durable.
You mention four grow beds. A good rule of thumb is to work on 25 liters of wet media per fish. This is the bio-filtration. Once established this will reduce your ammonia which is toxic for the fish. Understanding and managing the ‘nitrogen cycle’ is a key point of fish keeping.
You mention high PH
Fish do not like rapid changes. Any change should be slow.
Test your source water and make any adjustment to top up water before adding to the system.
Hydron ( clay balls) are PH neutral and are one of the best GB media you can use.
There is a relationship between PH,temperature and Ammonia. Local climatic conditions will also affect ideal fish species choice.
Genarally speaking trout like cold water Tilapia warm.

Sorry to hear about the fish.

Sounds like you have about 100 gallons of filtration? Were all 130 fish in the tank when this started happening or have you tried restocking after losing the first batch? It sounds like you were way overstocked, if this is the case, the pH is only a contributing factor. This thread might help regarding stocking - http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6646

As far as the pH -
What type of filtration was done on the well water?
What is the pH of the water after filtration?
What is the pH of the water after filtration and then just being left to sit for 24 hours?
What is the pH of the water after filtration and then just being left to sit for 24 hours in a glass filled part way with hydroton?

That should give you a pretty good idea if the hydroton has anything to do with the pH change (I think it's unlikely). Regardless of the result you should be able to keep the hydroton.

If you're going to adjust pH with acid, I would use Hydrochloric (aka muriatic acid), instead of Acetic acid for the pH adjustment but use caution and follow all safety procedures, it's a stronger acid than Acetic is. Adjust your top up water to a pH of 6.5 with Hydrochloric and let stand for a day or so before checking again, adjust if necessary and let stand for a few hours or add to system if the pH hasn't changed much. This allows the change to be gradual.

Your plants look like they have a nutrient deficiency likely due to the high pH. If you can take some up close pics and some back far enough to see the whole plant we might be able to tell you what they are missing. Iron is the normal culprit at high pH's because it's not available to the plant.

Let us know what you find

I have a whole house iron 800 sediment filter on my well. Ph is 7.2 out of the well and same after 24hr. It hasn't changed prior to the filter. No softener system just the filter. My iron in the water was 285ppm prior to the filter, in down to about 15ppm after the filter. It filters the hose water too. I had 40 1" gold fish to start after two weeks of a fish less system, then lost about 5 of them, then I got 15 new ones for free.... Lost 8.... Then got 30 chiclids 3" long, 2 plecos 16", and a catfish, then a friend needed a home for 2 fancy gold fish...one week later.... After the fancies were added that's when everything went to pot..... They all died within 72 hours..... I cleaned the pool no chemicals, just a brush and fresh water. Then ran it fish less for two weeks, and got another 30 goldfish for free they were 4" long each.... And system again went to pot and they were all dead in a week.... booo.... My plants are stressed but they finally started to grow better then they were, I am low on iron, calcium... When I shocked the system and brought ph down to 7.4 in one shot three days ago the cucumber leaves went yellow. Peas have been doing awesome the ones growing in the first bed are round 3 lol

my water temp is 21, constant. I am waiting to get an IBC $125 for a food grade tote.... I will bet one before I build the next four grow beds. The pool I know is only temporary.. This is my first set up the ammonia is added now that I have no fish.. to try ane restart the system.. since i did a COMPLETE FLUSH.. i will be getting more of that aquarium water to get the bacteria count up.... to try to re-establish, I had nitrates in may.. and due to the PH spike and then the fish kill.. it's basically back to square one.. also I am only using a 350gal per hour pond pump.. with loop siphons.. which I will be changing to bell siphons when I start the system again next spring.. trying to get the bugs figured out now before spending any more money...

I have a system that kills certain fish.. mainly Australian natives like Trout and Silver Perch.. Koi are fine..

It was not always like this..and something has got into the clay, that has left me thinking that it is only good for a.fish less system..

I have done a couple of 99% water changes.. and still the natives die.. a. Wet Version of a black-hole swallowing expensive fish..
My new system is working OK, now that the bacteria cycle has kicked in..

There can be a place for a divided system (I hope) , where the growing ((hydroponics) system 8s not connected to the Fish Growing system (RAS) mind you, the definition of RAS is pretty rubbery, with it being Recirculating-Aquaculture-System, and Recirculating-Aquaponics-System..

Back.to your system/problems, I can only suggest you reflect upon anything you have added to the system.. I am concerned at the possibility of ZINC being the problem, being from some water from a galvanised roof..
I have not tested for zinc, but have decided to buy a test kit.. BUT... from reading some data on lethal levels, it suggests, that the average test kit does not read down to those levels..

Another APer reported a death system and that despite stopping the use of the contaminated water, that the AP levels actually rose after water changes, inferring that the Zinc had built up in the clay..

Add salt... salt alters the activity of Nitrates, from what I read.. it also helps the fish more directly..

Could you consider looking for an IBc or an old water tank that can be used to gather and prepare water for system use.
I can understand that you WILL be massively nervous about killing more fish, as.I have done at least five times..
So could you find a less desirable table fish that is more tolerant of your conditions.. KOI and Carp with colors .. thesis developed from muck rakers .. could you try a cat fish species to get the system stable and then look at adding more sensitive fish when ready..

A relo has started a system, and his plans are three years ahead.. he does not intend to have serious fish for three years, so the he can have an absolutely stable system...
My feeling is that there is no such thing, as a stable system, capable of being left to itself.. tinkering seems to be a constant need..
Tinkering to the fish needs and also to thee plant needs, where their choice will dictate the needed pH...
..
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..
Adding two fancy fish, and all die..

Hmmmmmmmm.. could that have introduced a disease... were there any symptoms..
..
.

I thought about the disease too... But doesn't explain the next 30
Fish kill after cleaning the pool....

I hugely appreciate the support and advice! I am new to this and really enjoying the concept... I just need to get the system somewhat stable and productive.... I don't want to just be eating peas lol hehehe

..
Something that I am unsure of...... ... you did a complete flush... .. with what.. .. I assumed just water... more of the same water..


FLUSHING would not destroy the bacteria, as far as I understand.. only total starvation and death .. which raises the thought for the experts.. ".. and how long will bacteria survive within clay, in fresh water..."

My point to you is that the number of bacteria within the water, is infinitessimal when compared to that. within the clay..

PS.. for comments from experts..
If we completely drain and clean a system.. at what state/stage/time should it be considered DEAD. IE.. NEW..
IF the.clay remains wet.. how long will the clay based bacteria remain viable..
.

Just well water from
The hose

Will get this figured out and get a
Couple test fish......

+1 Titus and Scotty.

Its always sad for the fish and upsetting for their keeper when fish die.

If your 'complete flush' was just changing the water and not using any chemicals, your bacteria colonies should still be intact on your media. If you have since added ammonia and it is not being completely transformed to nitrite then nitrate within 24 hours, your system is not cycled (ie the bacteria has not established and you have no biofiltration). What were your readings before adding fish and when they were dying? Generally in a cycled well running system the pH is constantly dropping due to the nitrification of ammonia to nitrates, except when buffered with high carbonates in source water or media. Your nitrifying bacteria need aerobic conditions, so you need to have the water ciirculating to provide oxygen.

High pH can be a result of 'dead spots' in the system where solids (uneated food, fish waste or dead fish) accumulate and locally use up the oxgygen releasing toxins like ammonia. Ammonia toxicity increases with pH and temperature - there is a chart in the IBC of Aquaponics. If this is the issue, then adjusting the pH is only treating the symptoms, not the problem. Stirring up these 'dead' areas with physical cleaning can also release a big hit of toxins which can kill already stressed fish.

I suggest you make sure there are no dead spots in the system, then fishless cycle again while monitoring your water quality (pH, ammonia, nitritre, nitrate), so that you can be certain that it is cycled, then add no more than 1 fish per 25 litres of wet media. You don't count the inch or so of dry media at the top of your GBs, so your system would support around 12 fish grown out to edible size.

Too many changes too fast and too many fish without enough filtration. Sometimes it's good just to take a step back and not mess with it as much. If your ammonia is around 2 I wouldn't add any more at this point and I wouldn't change out the water. If your well water is chlorinated somehow then make sure you're giving this time to dissipate before adding to the system since this will kill the bacteria in the bio-filter.

I think BuiDoi means that salt helps with Nitrites not Nitrates. This helps the fish with stress as well. 1ppt = 1KG per 1000L or 1gm per L should be sufficient. Strawberries are about the only plant that will be affected at this level.

I'm not sure if zinc buildup is a likely problem this time of year, it's more likely if you get condensation on the arches of the greenhouse at night. If you can put a fan blowing air past this area it would take care of the problem in most situations.

Your pump is a bit small to generate a turnover rate of the fish tank once per hour which is what we usually recommend but this isn't written in stone. Keep in mind that 350 gallons is probably the maximum it can pump and when you pump higher, you'll deliver less water and likely less aeration as well. You may want to add aeration for the fish in some other way.

Is Iron the only thing your filter is supposed to remove (magnesium, sulfur, does it chlorinate as well to kill off iron bacteria)?

pH 8.8. NH3 2ppm @21C would kill fish pretty fast. As said above, hugely overstocked for the filtration you have. Ammonia will increase pH as it's an alkali, but with sufficient active bacteria, the conversion of NH3 to NO2 to NO3 will acidify your water and reduce your pH.

..
Dead Spots.. in the system..

I tend to think this is the single biggest benefit from flood-n-drain, and preferably by Auto-Siphon..
It it was full and then empty, and full again, then there is far less chance of impacted zones..

In any case - that won't be an issue here as the system is too new to have root-bound-zones..

Ie. If the bed is completely drained, then there is minimal chance of dead spots.. that turn anaerobic.. IMHO

Sadly, my problems started when I added trout to the second tank..
I adjusted pH, salted to three parts, added the trout, and in four days, everything was dead.. likely too many changes.

The seriously infuriating thing is that it seems to have triggered a response that now kills all natives... ie. Fish needing clean and pure water...
This despite making many changes that has the water far.clearer and all nitrogen readings at zero..

The other interesting point with your system.. Gold Fish are tremendously stable mongrels.. Pleco's would be very needy..
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