Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I feel for your situation Coach, and any american doing the right thing. To feel consistantly threatened by your surroundings is not a life I would like to live and I would do everything in my power to leave for a better life instead of strapping on a gun and hoping for the best.

So in a nut shell, your constitution states everyone has a right to bare arms but too many bad guys have guns so all the good guys need guns to protect themselves from all the bad guys with guns? Yep, cant see that one EVER getting sorted out.

Im sure there is much more to it but its all very unfortunate.

As Jim said, the only REAL reason you guys have to justify your wanting of the guns is basically " I like guns, I want them." And hey, thats fair enough, but please lets not try and play the cherry picking stats game. Other arguments are kind of pointless, a case of one person who helped a lady being threatened by a knife by pulling out his gun, doesn't make a case for less stringent gun control, neither do 100 similar cases, all they do is show examples of societal problems that you have, that we all have to differing extents.

Now you want to try and see if other crime rates have increased since guns were banned here? What like people having guns in Australia helped stop other crimes from happening? Man there really is a HUGE divide between our two countries. Even before our stricter controls you never saw any guns around the suburban areas, I had friends that went duck shooting and had rifles for their farms, but no one ever got excited about them, it was just another tool like a fishing rod or your cray pots, when you were going duck shooting you'd get the shotguns out and off you'd go for the weekend. You'd come back, lock them away and that was it till you went again. Most farmers will still have a rifle or two, but it's for taking care of vermin, rabbits, foxes, goats or shooting some roos for dog meat. Not ever for protection from other people.

Man, for a country so proud of it's freedom, I've never know a culture so afraid of itself? Hey in many places around the world people fear oppression and violence from other cultural, political or religious groups, but you guys just fear each other? What the hell.....?

Similar situation in South Africa. The fearing each other bit.

I saw an article recently talking about the incidences of (as distinct from and instead of "incidence of") crimes foiled by hand gun wielding citizens. The authour seemed to not comprehend that in any society were hand guns are so prevalent that sooner or later you will be able to collect as many stories as you like about citizens foiling crimes with their hand guns.

South Africa has been a troubled country for some time, apartheid only ended there about 20 years ago and I would think that it'll take quite a few decades for things to settle there when adjusting from a segregated society....

I understand your point EB. But, you obviously don't understand mine. These aren't random violent acts that I looked up online or read in my morning paper(so far 21 people in Tampa killed), these are people whom I live & work with on a daily basis. You seem to think that I'm cowering in my house, afraid to go out or waiting for the "bad guys" to come get me. I get up each day, go to work, play, fish, enjoy time with my family, etc. Just like everyone else. The fact that the crime rate has gone up over 50% in my area, and higher in the "city", makes me feel that I probably should be prepared. I have already stopped 2 pill heads from stealing tools, machines from my shop, and while some feel that isn't a problem(turn it in to your insurance and chalk it up to a loss), I am not going to sit b y and watch people steal what I worked hard to get, and what keeps my business going, and bread on my table. Yes, insurance is there for a reason, and the last time I had a large claim, it cost me about 3K. $500.oo deductible and then the company raised my premium 2500.00 the following year. In addition, there is the normal "druggie mentality" that once they score somewhere, they will return again and again. Another example from appx 2 miles away. My friend owns a business and collects large amounts of scrap at his location. He had an ongoing problem with pill heads cutting through his fence and stealing large quantities of his material. He lost about 3-4K in a month. He called the police, and explained the situation. he also explained that he was planning on spending the night out there and that he would be armed. He didn't want an officer mistaking him for one of the thieves. The officer said he would do the same thing, but that he shouldn't shoot them unless they threatened him. He eventually caught 4-5 different druggies, and held 2 a gunpoint until police arrived. He did not lose anymore inventory. He did not have insurance to cover the loss, which is why he sat out in one of the semis with his 12 gauge and .44. until he caught 2 and shot next to 1 of the others. He said he'd never seen anyone run so fast as they guy he shot over his head(he was elevated in a semi looking down on the thief)and screamed something along the lines of "If you come back, I'll f...ing kill you! Until you have walked in another man's shoe's, it's maybe not a good idea to judge him. We had a drugged out lady walk into our house about 3 years ago at around 9:00 PM. We had several people inn the house and we normally don't lock the doors when we're home. This woman was drooling on herself and asking for someone who we had never heard of. She was about 100 lbs and very high, and didn't pose any threat, but similar instance have occurred with a 200 lb man with a knife who is equally out of his mind, but not so passive. When these things happen to YOU, then you can decide if you wish to do nothing, or perhaps, like me, decide that maybe some defensive thinking is in order.

The BYAP shop was broken into about 5 times I think, perhaps it was 6, I've also had different houses I've lived in broken into many times over the years, it was up to 4 times in 4 houses in 4 years at one stage. You don't have a monopoly on crime or druggies.

This will just go round and round... You want your guns, ok cool, I can understand you want them... Personally, I will never be convinced that more guns can ever be a solution to anything within society, and I will always think that less guns within society is a far better thing.

Chris, you really need to press enter after a paragraph, it's really hard to read a wall of text.

We do understand what you're saying, it's not like we're ignorant of the situation, we just don't agree with the solution, and we're not going to.

If a girl was screaming outside my house, I'd call the cops, and walk out with a baseball bat. The cops would be there in minutes, and they have guns, it also balances the power quite a lot.

The problem of guns, in the hands of everybody, it starts an 'us vs them' mentality. Cops are afraid of people with guns (justified), so they are more likely to shoot, and the bad people are likely to shoot back, and the other way around as well. It compounds, and aggression increases on both sides, and it overflows into the community. Ego's inflate, and habits are passed onto the next generation, and people become more violent, aggressive and with a 'f*#k the police' mentality. When that comes in, people don't see the law as something that shouldn't be broken, and start doing what they want.

And yes, a lot of those problems come down to culture/environment/education/work (or lack of), but they aren't made better by people feeling like they are invincible with a gun in their hand. It isn't fixed by more guns, it's only made worse. We have police for a reason, they are there for a reason, and should be trusted and given the opportunity to do their jobs.

EDIT>>>

Joel, is there a massive AP black market that I've never heard of?

Surely you guys can see that while you don't like the situation for Chris, it is the reality.
The crims over there have plenty of firepower.
They use it readily.
All the finger pointing and lecturing in the world will not change the truth as it stands. Saying it shouldn't be that way may be speaking the truth but doesn't offer a viable solution or alternative.
Lets just commiserate with the man and pray to whatever deities we have that things don't degenerate to a similar level over here.

Bodgy, Thanks for at least acknowledging the fact that it is a different situation, and all the wishing isn't going to change the facts.

Colum, If I had waited for the police to show up at my place, all I would have done is file a report. Something we have had to do several times in the past. Never saw the stolon items again. If Terry, my buddy with the scrap yard, would have waited any longer, he would have been cleaned out. They were coming weekly.

So, while your idea of "letting the police do their job" is noble, it is also wishful thinking. I know quite a few cops, some as personal friends, and they all agree with my course of actions. Protecting myself, my family, and my possessions. They were very happy when Terry and I apprehended the thieves, so they could get them off the streets- even if it is for a too short time. But, that's another discussion.

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Guns do not cause these problems, they are caused by a large criminal element in certain areas of the country (mainly cities and southern border areas.) In more suburban/rural areas you don't have these problems and there are many more guns per capita than in the cities and tons of people with concealed carry permits. Cops don't care if you have a gun because the incidence of crime is so low, there has only been one officer involved shooting in the last like 20 years in my county. This is another instance of more guns = safer society because criminals won't come here from the cities to commit their crimes for fear of getting shot, so they just stick to robbing each other there. It will be interesting to see what happens in Maine over the next few years since they just passed constitutional carry too like a few other states.

I don't know about Australian police, but here you are likely to wait 15-20 minutes for police to show up which is an eternity in a bad situation. In general, the police are there to investigate crime and get the bad guys arrested, the response times in suburban and rural areas just don't allow them to be responsible for protecting you directly.

LowCarbTNPer, I can't imagine in all but the cities and 'burbs, that the response time is much better in Oz. I too am looking forward to see stats on Maine's crime rate with the new laws. They are already an open carry state.

So, my foreman Eric just called me to let me know he's headed to the hospital. Him and his cousin were just jumped by 4 guys at the Winn Dixie where they went to get groceries. He didn't have his gun on him, as he said he didn't think he needed it to buy groceries on a Sunday morning.

He was beaten pretty bad, stomped on his face multiple times. He has possible broken facial bones, some missing/loose teeth, and possible concussion. The police were called and Eric and his cousin were told that these same 4 guys have done the exact same thing at LEAST three previous times. They were also told, because of the damages to the 4 guys, that if they pressed charges, the others would also press charges, and they would all go to jail...after they were released from the hospital.

Sounds like maybe they should have just let the guys beat them to death, and then their families could press charges. I told him, as long as you stay in that neighborhood, you better carry your weapon. He said "I'm not walking to my mailbox without it." I hope everything is ok with him and Vinny(cousin).

This is just another example of what we deal with on a daily basis. That call could just have easily been from his mom, telling me he had been killed in a fight with 4 guys. You keep telling me how we should let the police do their job, but the reality is in a real life situation, they aren't going to be there. This whole incident probably lasted under a minute, yet 3 guys are headed to the hospital and could have easily been the morgue. Stomping on someone's head while they're down on concrete is a life threatening position.

In the last 3 weeks, he has saved a girl from getting raped/killed, had to run off a guy running through the neighborhood with a knife, and now has received a trip to the hospital while trying to get some groceries. In the first 2 incidents, he had his weapon and everything turned out fine. In the last, we didn't, and he's now in the hospital. Don't tell me, we're better off waiting for the police to do their job...you're WRONG.

Hi Chris
I think one of the things that shines out from this thread is the depth of affection for the American people shown by citizens of other countries.
We care for and worry about you guys.
As I said I live, A world away” You must asses the current threat to your family and plan accordingly.
Do you want your children to grow up;
With the current threat? Or a reduced threat?
I would assume a reduced threat.
How do you do that?
Teaching them to amass more firepower is one way.
Move to another country.
The hard way and I would suggest the American way is to change and adapt.
Change is hard. It begins with the realization that things can be better.

Titus, you make a very valid point. Having seen the gradual decay of morals, the family unit, and loss of values, I don't see the current trend improving. I wish it wasn't true, but all I have to do is turn on the TV or the computer, or drive around. Wishing that things would improve won't make them improve. We are sliding down a slippery slope. There are still some very good people, but the bad are growing in population, and with the decline of social values, this trend will continue. It's supposed to get worse before it gets better, and that certainly seems to be happening. We've seen a lot in the last 50 years.

I watched it during the 2 decades that I coached. When I started, the majority of kids were respectful, and their parents realistic and thankful for the time we spent teaching them. Toward the last few years, the kids were less respectful, some downright rude, and the parents were more & more concerned about how we treated their little "prodigies", instead of being grateful or at least realistic about their child's ability and why they participated in the sport to begin with. Hard work, team work, life lessons where no longer a priority.

I actually didn't realize it, but those kids from the 80's are now having children and reinforcing that same entitlement and "what's in it for me" attitude that their parents displayed. The poor parenting was not just a sports issue, but a societal issue. It's now beginning to show with a whole generation of people who are non caring about others, lack a good moral compass, and are looking for what they get out of life, instead of what they can do to help others. I coached some great young men & women, many who are now outstanding citizens and loving and supportive parents. Unfortunately, I feel that they are not the norm, but the exception. Hence the problems.

Actually thinking back, it was more the last decade from about '98-08 that the real problems arose. Before that, there was the exceptional parent who was unreasonable, and questioned playing time, and why their little star didn't play the forward position. But, the vast majority were good people. That was about the same time I started getting the same feedback from high school and other club coaches. Saying the same thing. Then it started with college coaches.