Backyard Aquaponics
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Touché, very true EB!

Strangely enough Charlie in Switzerland some people are obliged by law (or used to be) not as a right, to keep their assault rifles in their homes (and maintain them).

And I would point out (generally) that the term used in the US of A is arms and a right is not an obligation under law.

And to be totally unfeeling and insensitive their is a lot of emotional crap in this thread.

gorotsuki69, Kyle was killed at a gun range my a vet with PTSD. He was trying to help the guy, not defend himself. no one knows what happened, but it is beyond logic that you compare that situation to a home invasion. If you're not willing, or able to defend your self, and family in that situation, that's your business. But don't try and tell me what is my right under our constitution to do the what i feel is best for my family. The whole the bad guy has the advantage is simply BS. Most are high or on drugs, therefore not clearly thinking. They are looking for a quick score and possibly to terrorize a defenseless victim. They are not prepared for an alarm system, large dogs, and homeowner with a 12 gauge and .45 who is very familiar with the house lay-out(blind spots, back door, side door locations, etc) You choose to take your chances and hope that nothing bad happens. I choose to prepare for the worst scenario and hope that I never have to do what I'm prepared to do. Could I also be a victim of a violent crime in my home or out in the streets? Sure, but it won't be without a fight. Claymore's and trip wires are not in my future, but motion sensor lights, a monitored alarm system, large dog who will attack an intruder, and a few weapons that I can access in under 1 minutes make me sleep better.

ok Kyle vs home invasion is not the same scenario but the underlying point is the same : if the motive is to kill you then it doesn't matter who you are or what gun you have at the time.

here we go again, how does a 12yr old get hold of a gun?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/12-year-arrest ... d=32304539

The same way any other criminal can. Black market guns will always be available. They are illegal, just like drugs. We spend billions on that war too, yet drugs are still prolific. Why does one think that outlawing guns will eliminate guns from people who don't obey the law? It's illegal for a minor to possess, illegal for a felon to possess, illegal for someone with a drug addition to possess. Has that stopped those people?

and yes, if I lived a lifestyle that I would worry about a "hit" being put out on me, then my current set up wouldn't help much. The vast majority(I would say over 99%) are not an organized, plotted assassination, it's 1 or more punks, high on drugs looking to get some quick cash. Not the type I'm especially scared of...unless I'm unarmed.

When guns are restricted, it means they are far less available to bad people as well. And people on drugs would rather spend their money on drugs, rather than a horribly expensive gun. Which narrows it down to organised crime who have the guns, and organised criminals aren't going to break into my house and try to steal my TV, the $100 they'd get from it isn't worth their time. They'll use the guns to defend their drug deals, and whatever else they do. They also aren't going to tie me up and rape my wife, because they've got the far easier women around who are attracted to that sort of lifestyle, and if they started doing that sort of crap, the media would go nuts, and the police would crack down on them in a heartbeat.

You said earlier that it's not a fear thing, but you also say you don't sleep well in your own home unless you're armed, I sleep very happy knowing there are no guns in my house, and none in the hands of my neighbours. Guns give people a sense of power over others. If a druggie has a gun, he's going to feel stronger and more powerful, and invulnerable. Even if they are skin and bones trying to get enough money for the next hit. Here, without a gun, they aren't going to have that feeling, if they spot somebody in the house, they'll just run, instead of feeling like a god and shooting, and continuing to steal what they came for.

Chances are that one of your neighbours is a law abiding, licensed shooter. They just don't advertise the fact that they own firearms. (Being a pedant I can't use the word 'gun', since rifles and pistols aren't guns... ).

The problem with the gun control debate is there is a lot of money involved. About 6 years ago the rumors were Oboma was going to outlaw guns. There was a rush to buy guns and amo. Today some people in some areas are still having a hard time finding certain types of ammunition. I wish I had bought stock in a gun manufacturing company before the insane rush.

Colum, The media here would rather focus on a mentally ill man who shoots up a church then the multiple home invasions, armed robberies, and murders that happen on a routine basis. I agree we have a problem with easy access to guns, particularly hand guns. The solution is not banning them. That will only remove them from the hands of citizens, not felons. Or, in a lot of cases, make felons out of law abiding citizens. You guys banned them, and yet you continue to have "bikies" and other criminal elements obtain them in an island nation, where, theoretically, it would be much easier to control the importation of weapons. We have thousands of miles of unsecured borders, how do you think it would fare here? Yep, not very damn good.
Apparently, you also don't have street gangs over there. Very prevalent here. All can't legally have weapons now. Or at least the large majority. They are either under age, or have felon arrest records. Yet, surprisingly(to you)they still manage to get illegal weapons. Do a little research on MS-13, Bloods, Crips, Latin Knights, Mexican Mafia, etc. These wonderful young men will get weapons, like they have done in Chicago and NY, where the nations toughest anti-gun laws are, regardless of what the law says. I wish we lived in a world where we didn't have to worry about protecting ourselves, but in this country at least, it's not the case. I've lived in some remote areas, and simply due to lack of people, you were relatively safe. The closer you move into the city/suburbs, the more dangerous it gets. It used to just be inner city areas. Now, in our area at least, very good neighborhoods have turned into very bad neighborhoods. Full of drugs, low level gang activity, and lots of crime. One of my employees quite possibly saved a young ladies life a few weeks ago in front of his house. He heard a girl screaming and looked out the window. There were 4 guys surrounding her and 1 had a large assault type knife. Eric(my foreman) grabbed his 9mm and ran out the door. He told them to let her go. They initially said they were going to "carve him up" until he pulled his weapon out and then they all went on about their business. I don't live in a bad area, but it's not as safe as it was 28 years ago when I moved here. If Eric hadn't had his gun that night, I'm pretty sure what would have happened would not have been pretty. That's the reality of our world. How you chose to deal with it is your business. I'm not a vigilante or John Wayne type, not looking to shoot someone or get my name in the paper. I also don't want to become a victim when I feel that I can take a few simple steps to prepare for the worst case situation. I'm glad you live in an area that you have no worries, and no crime. Unfortunately, that is not the case here. In saying that, we are also in one of the moderate areas in this nation in regards to crime stats. Someone mentioned that they had been to 3rd world countries and never felt threatened. I can give you a tour of a few areas with in an hour of here that I promise you would feel threatened, and depending on your luck and the time of day/night, most likely would be threatened. Tampa is still way safer then Chicago, Detroit, Flint, New Orleans. It's all relative...safety. Chicago, the city with the toughest gun laws in the country has the highest murder rate in the country. They average around 2500 shooting a year and around 450-500 deaths from the same. If you loom at crime in areas where gun ownership is less regulated, and even encouraged, there is a corresponding drop in shootings and gun murders. Coincidence? Maybe. I think it's more likely that they(scum) are less likely to want to take their chance in areas where they know they're more likely to meet up with the business end of a .45 or .357.

sorry, looK at crime rates in Chicago^

So what is the real point of this thread?

You said you wanted Aussies to chime in on gun control, and yet every comment that is not supportive of your anti-gun control agenda you just try to refute.

So is your endgame attempting to convince the people of Australia that their gun control legislation failed?? Or are you just hoping the imaginary "bad guys" read this forum and will now think twice before laying siege to your house and family??

Also, asking for the "real facts" about crime rates in Australia by looking for some anecdotes from members is quite a problematic way of thinking...

Actually on that note many guns are not illegal in Australia and for many of them you don't need a permit

I even know a guy that has a whole stack of rifles that don't need a permits. They are a bit big to lock up though so he just keeps them in a shed.

Gun deaths in Australia have dramatically fallen since the new gun regulations have come in. There are a couple of people around who do present a bunch of information that contradicts this story but there massaging of the figures is not very convincing.

Its worked (to reduce gun deaths) here in Australia but we have a very different culture. For it to work in a America who knows if its possible but like Jim said once you go beyond "I like guns" the arguments get really thin.

The protection argument is a case in point.

In Australia we think its a better deal that we don't have our own gun and niether does our neighbour and that the police do. We are prepared to accept that if we find our selves in the midst of a life threatening situation we won't have a firearm to use. We see this as a good deal because its highly unlikely we will EVER in our lives EVER be in such a situation. More importantly is our perception that this is a highly unlikely event.

It seems that the situation and more importantly peoples perception of the situation appears to be completely different. Like I said I think Americans really need to look at their society and work out not what needs to stay the same (let us keep our guns) but what they should change.

For example in any other first world country if the police fired as many bullets in a YEAR that American police fire in one encounter there would be public outcry.

Victorian police shot a handful of people in one year in clearly JUSTIFIABLE circumstances and yet the Police still concluded that the reason the people were killed was because of poor Police training.

In America unarmed people are shot in the back and the police are exonerated of all charges.

What I would really like to see from Australia is the stats of other crime after gun confiscation passed. You take away guns of course gun crime is going to go down but what has happened with assaults, stabbings, break-ins, rapes, etc., etc. since then? (I don't mean it in any antagonistic kind of way, just genuinely interested.)

Others are right about the U.S. borders/shoreline though, even if we passed the strictest gun laws in the world there would be tons of guns coming over the border just like drugs. Guns would be more expensive true but I imagine a basic 9mm pistol would be around $750-1000 and an AR-15 would be around $1500-2000 and not some ridiculously large figure out of most people's reach.

We do need to make major changes in getting the police under control and improving mental healthcare, preferably with a fully socialized healthcare system and not the garbage Obamacare forcing individuals to purchase from the same private insurance companies that are (substantially) responsible for our insane health care costs in the 1st place.