Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

the ppl are the market.
and I don't think the gov ever preys on business.. far from it,
to some degree, business prey on gov and BTW who is it that pays GST?
Not any business that I know of.
In fact I talk to lots of business ppl and they are of the same opinion..who is paying tax? The pheasant wage earners as you call them pay tax, that makes up what % of our population, plus the comsumers that don't have deductions. that is where our taxes come from.

RupertofOz,
He, the business owner/entrepeneuer, gets his money by hocking his house to the bank to start his business, and if he stuffs up, he loses the lot.

Muzza

True Muzz... point being made was that

In this case he is consuming a bank product, by doing so he assist the bank/enterprise in making a profit and pays for the enterprise to pay its workforce etc....

The assertion being made was that it was enterprise that paid for everything.... as I said it's somewhat of a chicken and egg argument anyway

Risk pays off...
A business that fails to plan, plans to fail...
So assuming the plan will work the risk is reduced or combated by strategy.
Most business ppl have failed before success...
Abe Lincoln went guts up 3 times(bankrupt)before he got into politics.
hehehe.
Now there a...................?

Looking forward to seeing it tamo42. I might even buy one off you when I'm settled in Co.

Yes, it is a bit chicken and egg. Depends on where you sit as to what you see. Those with a nice safe secure jobs, usually gov of some sort.
They are the egg, they like to be kept nice and warm and comfortable by the chicken and when they finally get up enough energy to break an egg shell, they have the chicken bring them their food, and squawk loudly if all is not to their liking.

And the rest of us are the chicken, we have to go get the food and bring it to the squawking chicks, make sure that nobody does anything bad to them. And if they are not getting enough food they peck all our feathers out and leaves us all wrecked and scrawny.

Yep, I agree, it is a bit of a chicken and egg argument.

Back to the claims on the autopot aquaponics system:
I can see Joel's point that it seems strange for the guy to claim that his system is simpler, when the diagrams in his downloadable PDF clearly show his system is more complex than the continuous flow aquaponics system he has shown next to it.
I think his point is that open loop is better than closed loop. "It eliminates the need for monitoring of water qualities, such as pH and conductivity for the plants. Also minimizes the need for monitoring water quality for the fish." and "It is not important to match the number of plants to the fish as the Autopot Aquaponics system is versatile and forgiving.". However I would have thought you still need to tune the number of autopots you need and the length of clear tube, to maintain a balance in the fish tank

I would agree B2B, then there are questions relating to fish feed rates, growth of fish, degradation of algae tube efficiency overtime etc....

Quite happy to accept that the smart valve performs exactly as intended and stated ... i.e it delivers water to the plants when and only when required.....

But I'm not sure how the smart valve knows when to increase the water draw down (hence replacement in tank water) due to increased growth rates/feed rates, therefore increased ammonia output etc.....

Perhaps by sheer luck or fluke of nature the plant growth and nutrient requirement for that growth might exactly match the corresponding growth of fish growth produced ammonia etc....

But for a system that's only been operational for twp months and without even any suggestion or allusion to any factual evidence it remains very much a "maybe" possible but who knows.

To my way of thinking as growth/feed rate/ammonia production increases within a fixed volume of water... the concentration is increased, as reflected in pH for example.....

Removing and replacing a fixed amount of system water by plant uptake only does just that... removes a percentage of the water....

There's no purification process (ie. decreasing of concentration within the tank volume) taking place as water is not returned to the tank.

The only decrease of ammonia etc occurring is that which occurs through dilution obtained by replacement of the water used by the plants....

Although this is variable due to plant growth/requirements, it's also variable based on daily temperature.....

Whereas the quality of the tank water is being degraded daily on an almost constant/fixed "straight line" basis I suspect....

Without monitoring of the water quality I can't see how this system can perform as claimed.... at least not continuously without intervention.

Then there's the question of the auto/manual "nutrient dosing" systemm/pump.... just when/how/who determines the operational parameters of this equipment and how can these factors be unrelated to monitoring of water??

I only just read to PDF, so I have missed contributing to this [s]argument[/s] debate.

Heres my two cents that immediately caught my eye. I will sum up my points, or agree if they have already been made.

- Do they expect us to use straight tap water to top up the system?
- Try Pumping water through 100m of 13mm clear tubing on a roof it is harder than it sounds.
- The algae growing in the pipe will die and regrow and die, that and the calcium in the water will block the pipe. Period.
- All it would take is one heat wave and the algae in the pipe is dead and there goes all the biological filtration.
- Surface area based on 100 m of 13mm ID tubing ~ 40,000 cm2 where as a cubic metre of gravel is something like 125,000 cm2. Plus $100 worth of piping can get you a trailer and a half of gravel.


I love the idea of using autopots to supplement my Aquaponics system, I just don't think that he has marketed it the right way. There are a lot more costs, the same amount of labour involved, and I don't care what people think you still have to test the fish water. He is tying to sneak his way into a niche market which has been operating the same way for a long time.

Good points TimC, the longer my system runs the more I am convinced that any system needs the plain and simple gravel grow beds. Ok to have a coco peat bed or two hanging off the side, but the core system is gravel grow beds for me.
If the guy does not test with a test kit, then he will find as I did in the beginning, the other way to test the water is to kill a few hundred fish. Opps, must be the water !!!!

Muzza

That sums up my reaction too. Smartvalves = clever and useful, his approach = wrong

Just read your post NJH and thought if you had said that in your first post a lot less fun would have been had by all.

lol

Just a thought alluded to by TimC...

In marine systems we often use what are called algae scrubbers. In simple terms an algae scrubber is plumbed in-line with the main system. System water passes through it and lighting parameters are set to optimize growth for the algae type you are cultivating. The algae then take up nutrients in order to grow. Periodically you harvest some of the algae in order to remove the nutrients completely from the system.

Fail to remove the algae and ultimately the algae dies, releasing the nutrients back into the system.

It is this last point that I think will be an issue for this autopot system (not necessarily the devices themselves).

Sure the algae will filter the water and take up some nutrients initially, but unless the algae is then removed it will ultimately release the nutrients back (or grow so well that is ultimately block the lines).

End of the day, and in very simple terms, algae filtration only works if the algae is harvested.

AJ

Some more thoughts...

Maybe the water use needs to be high in order to keep the ammonia diluted enough for the fish to survive. I haven't read the pdf, but is there any filtration for the fish? The impression I get is new water into fish tank, water + waste out to the plants.

I see autopots as a good way to add extra plants as needed, and they can be further away from the tank which is a bonus. Would like to try some if I can find them in Adelaide. Otherwise maybe one of those self-watering pots filled with perlite/vermiculite would be similar. The water in the bottom of the pot keeps the plant going for a day or two.

Nova