Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Thanks for the heads up! But I was only using the one bottle as an example? You don’t need to cool the whole system, just a bit for the fish? To feel comfortable, as we all sit by a fan or simular? In my system I was thinking of using four bottles, two in the morning and two in the afternoon, but adjusting the grow bed feed will also help cool the water down, depending on plant growth, covers can also be used, I have tropical fish in my system, ATM its to cold to put some off them in my system, that’s why they are indoors ATM,
Would you like to add a way to cool his system other than what I have said so far?

Please go ahead,

If you have water circulation going on, you do have to cool all the water. A fan in air is of no relevance to ice in water- fans do not cool air, they cool you by evaporation of water on your skin. That's just not going to work under water!

The best way to cool your water is to stop it getting hot in the first place, and most heat gain is due to direct radiation from the sun. Excluding that from any non-plant surface in the system is the first thing to do, and insulating other parts from high ambient temperatures is also important. Get a chiller if need be, but that can be expensive to run if using mains electricity. I used large volumes of ice to keep my system a bit cooler last summer, well over 50kg/day at times- you need to stockpile it if making it yourself, because unless you have an industrial ice-maker, you'll use it up a lot faster than you can produce it.

But a fan on the ft or shed would help take away any gases from the fish tank and excess heat from the shed or fish tank lid , as ice is the quickest way to cool water, a solid mass of 2kg would last longer than just adding ice blocks? So two 2ltr bottles off frozen water would help reduce water temperatures for hours! I don’t have a industrial ice maker? But I do have a fridge/freezer! I can easily freeze two 2ltr bottles of water over night to make it more comfortable for the fish each morning and I can add the other two bottles from the freezer in the afternoon! When I get home from work, I thought it logical, as that’s what I have done for years in aquariums, but smaller bottles,

Agree - from someone else who has done this. 2 litres will do nothing in an IBC, you will see no measurable drop in temperature. The ice ive poured in throughout the day attimes rivals that of a shopping trolley + some....

Starting with 3000L of water at 20C, adding 20kg of ice at 0C, assuming perfect insulation, the resultant temperature would be 19.3C

-------------
Quantity of ice (kg) 20
Initial temp ( C ) 0

Quantity of Water (L) 3000
Initial temp ( C ) 20

Energy: Ice to 0C ( J ) 0
Energy: To melt the ice ( J ) 6680000

Tank temp after melting ice ( C ) 19.46806816

Equilibrium Temp ( C ) 19.33914056

-------------

Of course, this is not instantaneous and there is no such thing as perfect insulation, so in real life the equilibrium temperature is actually going to be higher.

Cooling water with ice is exceptionally inefficient, and very expensive.

Thanks Blizzard but now thinking my best option is to move the clothes line as suggested by Squatchaponics and have a direct gradient downward SLO flow from the FT to the GB's.
Thanks for the heads up on the overflow pipe which I definitely will be doing.

Hey Rendang, really impressed with your system and good to know another AP is in Sydney lol Love to see some updated pics!!!!
I think i'm over my hopes of raising Jade Perch and agree with you Silver perch and Trout are the go, thus now wonder since it seems my design was trying to achieve warmer water temps in winter for the Jade Perch.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/221393601227263/831127323587218/

Jade Perch
Optimum water temp:
22°C - 28°C
Will survive in water:
15°C – 40°C
Fish growth stops below:
18°C
Fish stops feeding:
16° C
Fish die:
10°C
Silver Perch
Optimum water temp:
24°C
Will survive in water:
12°C - 35°C
Fish growth stops:
15°C
Fish stops feeding:
15°C
Fish die:
5°C

I'm not interested in setting up a system whereby I need to either pay endless heating/cooling bills or bother with adding ice.

I'm still undecided on the benefits of the GH in western Sydney but there also is a shading system with Sproutwell GH's http://www.sproutwellgreenhouses.com.au ... stems.html
My thoughts are to be able to grow year round, whats been your experiences in your system with Sydney winter???
Its a huge expense so I really need to understand the difference in gain if I am to invest in a Sproutwell GH?
Another option is Faye's impressive system where she uses a pagola type cover.

Thanks it seems I can improve temp by insulating the shed and the external exposed piping. The chiller/ice is not a option, I want to set this system up to be viable somewhat of ongoing expenses.

I really don't understand the water temps I will experience with this system design and if was to look at the highest temp day here being 45 Degrees Celsius, what water temps would i experience in this system with possibly over 5000ltrs of water throughout the FT and ST's???
If i insulate the shed and piping and add maybe a solar powered whirlybird I can see that is a cost effective way to help the situation.
Maintaining a least 50mm of dry media in GB's would also help evaporation and water temps in the system I would imagine?
Would like to know what water temps other AP members are experiencing in their systems on these extreme hot days?
Looking at the water temp tolerances I have quoted on Jade and Silver perch from FB Aquaponics Australia 35c(S)-40c(J) is the max. I thought my bigger worry was cold temps in winter with a recorded Sydney lowest temp in 61yrs of 4.3c.

Instead of the potential problems with three sumps under the GBs, if you can dig, I'd consider burying whole IBCs for the sump.

Insulating piping has almost zero effect compared with the biggest heat sinks, the GBs. On the hottest days when you're trying to keep water cool, don't pump to the GBs; on the coldest nights when you're trying to keep the water warm, don't pump to the GBs. The short time and the limited surface area for heat transfer of the piping to the environment makes insulating the piping a waste of time and money imho. Stabilising the temperature in the shed is a different matter, and is where I'd be concentrating my efforts. I'm in Perth, we have 40+ days in summer and (locally) 0- in winter, yet I run an outdoors system, with minimal insulation (and even managed to get last summer's barra through a cold winter!) It takes a "long time" for the environment to heat/cool water, so just a little bit of thermal protection (insulation) can make a big difference, as can having more water in the system to be heated/cooled (stability by mass).

If you're going to push the limits of stock density beyond the "recommended" values, then I'd be looking at a "integrated aquaculture"-esque system, ala Paul from Earthan Group. When it's too hot/cold outside, the over-abundance of fish can be kept healthy with recirculating mechanical and biofiltration systems, and nutrient recovery system inside the shed; when the weather is suitable, these can be bypassed and you're back to "standard" aquaponics.

Have you considered installing solar panels on the roof of the shed and a battery bank inside the shed? Makes for "cheaper"(??) running and provides a backup power source.

Make sure the shed is big enough for these and more ideas, expansion in the future!

If you have a look at my system thread, I have water and air temps plotted for a few months up to Decmeber. I think the hottest water temp I saw was just under 27C, and the hottest day was 42 in early January this year. My FT and ST are both buried, which regulates the temperature somewhat.

Thanks for the info about insulating piping
I'm looking at 12 x 500mm IBC GB's and 6 x 500mm IBC ST's.
Unfortunately I am on DSP for a back condition so getting help from friends to set all this up and as being in public housing on a ongoing lease, the condition is that I have to leave the premises as I found it, if I have to move out.
Digging a hole 3m x 1m x 1.2m x 0.8m(d) to fit 3 x IBC's is not something I can now consider. Distributing that amount of dirt then having to replace it would be a nitemare if I had to move.

My idea of the FT in shed did come about from Dr Leonard Wilson and that recovery system you suggest is something maybe feasible down the road but given this is my first attempt at AP im trying to make it simple as possible to I have a better understanding, maybe thru error lol

I was given the 3000Ltr FT so thats how this idea of mine to start AP all came about lol

I'm also starting to wonder if having the FT in the shed now is not worth it???? For the effort am I just as much better off having the complete system outside as such this google map diagram layout?

Solar panels, yes is something i am considering to keep charge to my backup system.
I was thinking 80-100 fish in this system but not fussed on pushing the fish quota as feeding is relative to the GB's managing the filtration and nutrient uptake by the plants. What fish number would you suggest, I have read 25ltrs/fish?

Thanks Gunagulla lots of great reading there and as I can see from your Temp chart the huge ups and downs of outside temps did not that much to effect the water temps being something of concern, if I have read it right.
Again much as I would like to bury FT and ST that's not an feasible option for me. Maybe I can cover the half IBC sumps somewhat and insulate them?
Restricting less water changes should also help as suggested by Buson
Humidity is somewhat high at times also here with being on the blue mountains foothill of the Sydney basin, so hot days also usually mean high humidy.

Thanks, the growth of plants and fish was a bit slow during winter but as things warmed up over the past few months everything has rocketed forward, pulled out a 37cm trout last weekend, and smoked up another 5 today, delicious. But as for pics, for some bizarre inexplicable reason I can't seem to resize them to suit the forum like I was perfectly able to do only a few months ago ? ? ? Anyway I'll figure it out again one day. As for the greenhouse, could you build the system first, then later build the greenhouse over the growbeds if you thought it was needed ? cheers

Those trout sound amazing, used to go trout fishing when I was young and we would get them smoked at the local servo - great memories

Now totally undecided what plan I should take up but I do know I don't want to invest in a huge mistake

I was hoping a clearer idea of whether I should have the FT in the shed or not????
If not, then there is no need to move the clothes line and I could have the FT to the left of the backyard as shown in my last googlemap I posted. Which would be the cheapest and easiest option.

But if I am to accommodate for a future GH then I still would have to build a 6m x 3m paved area surrounded by Bessa Blocks because I can imagine once the GB's are established it would be a hassle to work around it.

There are farms in the local area I drive past that have tunnel GH's, I'm finding it hard to find info on GH's used in AP in Sydney. I'm sure our climate is alot different to that of other states?
http://www.willyweather.com.au/nsw/grea ... brook.html
1/1/2010 - 4/10/2014
Highest temp:
46.5°c 18th January 2013
Lowest temp:
-1.1°c 30th June 2010

I would like to find out more about what water temps I could experience if I put the FT in the shed combined with the GH???
Would the water temps get high enough to kill fish given that amount of water in my system??