Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

It always amazes me why financial consultant's bother about advising people when if they are so good at making financial decisions they don't just travel the world spending their millions.

There is a very simple test.
A number of years ago when mobile phones were not long out the place I worked hired a consultant. I went into the toilets to have a piss, there was this bloke standing there talking with a mobile in one hand and guess what in the other.

I recognised him instantly as the Consultant.

That is the difference. A consultant should be ale to offer some sort of guarantee for their work. Since people are only just starting to get commercial AP operations up and running it is hard for me to recognise anyone as a consultant. Rakocy and the like are more researchers.

I could work as an AP consultant but the breif would have to be clear that they were after advice rather than a solution. For example I would be happy to be a consultant and to review and critique an AP business plan. Like wise I have prepared a business plan and am prepared to say to investors what I expect to able to achieve. However, until I have a working commercial system producing positive cashflow after interest, depreciation and all costs I would not be happy providing a solution or system to a client that they would then go off and operate.

I used to be an environmental consultant and did work for a range of clients that included corporations, local, state and federal governments and their institutions. Was happy to do that because I had the professional training and the industry experience and body of knowledge to draw on. AP doesn't have that.

I think it depends how you represent your consulting expertise and what you offer consultation on.

If you have a successful backyard system, advertise as a consultant for setting up backyard systems and are consulting people setting up backyard systems... Nothing wrong with that at all. If you take the same scenario and a customer calls wanting design and instillation of a 50,000ft^2 facility from the same guy, he should have the business ethics to say to that customer that this is beyond his range of expertise that he would gladly point them to someone that can help (if he knows someone). The problem is that many people see this as nothing more than an opportunity to make $$$  and take the job (though they probably couldn't even size the piping). 

Though I don't heavily advertise it ATM, I consult in our industry under a separate buisness name from my farm (important to me to keep the books separate on this). Ive been at this over a decade now and feel confident in my design and troubleshooting skills. I offer consultation on subjects that I know, have experience with and in areas where i am confident that I can meet the customers needs/requirements.

If someone calls me and wants to build some tuna pens and invest in pen culture... I'm not your guy.
If they want to build 20 acres of gravel beds... Not your guy.

Everyone in this industry does things a little different so it's important that the client and consultant are a good fit and understand each others expectations before doing buisness.

Be as transparent and ethical as possible.

Exactly Ryan. The problem is so few people operate that way.

When I first learnt about AP I read the science and was so impressed I went looking for a commercial supplier of AP systems. I soon learnt that there wern't any. Although there were/are a number of people that were happy to sell me gear, expertise and material with production and income projections.

Remember this was back in ~2006. Now those "Gurus" their word (well one of thems word ) not mine may not remember those conversations but I do. I remember what they tried to sell me and I remember the claims they made.

When I called Joel he said "I have no idea". I've respected him ever since.

That is so true. When I went to the "Universitys" and took their tests They tried to tell me that I
was a geneus and could become such a great teacher in their system....IF I would CONFORM.

I mouthed off and told them "If I am as smart as you say, why would I need you"
Well, that pissed them off so much they said I had to start off with "Bone head English".

And that has held true all my life; I can speak fluently on almost any subject and even impress some.
But every time I accually try to do something for real, I find my self making the same common
mistakes as everyone else makes.

It takes years of doing and failing and dirty fingernails and sore backs to be an expert.
And then no one will believe you... 'cause you wear "farm cloths"

I started down this course for one very basic reason; I wanted to taste a "RIPE tomato".
The fishys are just good pets that don't want to crawl into your lap 24 hrs a day.
And they taste so good on platter.

So my take on this subject is,,,If you want to learn this stuff, then get your hands dirty,
kill a few fish and wither some veggies. No apprentice ever gradguated the first year.
I know, I tried and tried and tried.

Just a thought from an "old timer"...Daucie

This is where a consultant should save you money.

Compare with the field of engineering.

Many people with a bit of nouse can design a post and beam shed strong enough that it won't blow down or away. Simple just make the posts huge, the beams huge, the connections huge and essentially oversize everything.

An engineer allows you to get a piece of paper to say it won't fall down or blow away but they should also save you money by designing a shed that uses posts, beams and footings that are only as big as they need to be.

A good consultant should be able to save you or make you a lot more money than it costs you for their services. An ability of a consultant to convey the value of their service determines how succesful they are at winning jobs. When I was looking for AP consultants none of them were able to convince me that they were worth the money they wanted to charge me.

Some of them may be worth that money now because now they have some actual experience but now I know much more than I did then so for many things that I would have outsourced (pipe network design for example) I can now do them myself. In some cases I think I can do them better than others who would charge me a fortune for inferior work.

That's exacly what I am saying.
In my last post, I asked the man if this was a hobby or profession.

It makes a vast difference. With a hobby, it matters little how much it costs.
When your bank role is on the line, you have to get it right or FAIL....Kids starve
and your wife loses faith in you, and you are called a fool, and no one will take a
chance on you again.

A proper profestion takes years to find out where the theories fail and the reallitys
begin.
If you want to make a living off this, then get your hands dirty and do it, and do it
until 95% of your fish grow to harvest size. Healthy and stronge and tasty.

A good engineer will come out tell you all the whys and wherefores and charge you a bunch.
Then you will still have to go through the dead fish and wilted plants until you learn
the instinct of a real farmer.

Start small and grow...Daucie

As has been mentioned, it depends what level of AP you're "consulting" on... If you're talking commercial scale AP set-ups then I would say at this point in time there are very few people with the level of knowledge and practical experience required to call themselves commercial consultants.

On the flipside, I offer a consultancy service for those with backyard type systems, whether it be for someone starting out for the first time and needing some direction and advice in regards to system design etc, or someone with an established system that may be having issues... and I feel with my Horticultural trade qualification and nearly 30 years experience, plus 20 years hydroponic experience, 14 years owning a retail hydroponic/aquaponic store, 10+ years of experience keeping fish & yabbies, and 5 years experience in AP... that I'm qualified to do so.

The interesting part however, is figuring out what constitutes a fair and reasonable consultancy fee.

I often get asked if I can "drop over" and have a look at someone's system for them, and for a couple of years I did just that. I spent many of my Saturday arvo's after closing the shop "dropping over" and looking at systems for people... free of charge. Initially I wasn't interested in being paid, I did it for two reasons:

a). I genuinely wanted to help people sort their issues out.
b). I wanted the experience, ie: seeing a variety of systems as well as diagnosing and resolving issues etc.

It was a good experience, I met quite a few AP enthusiasts, saw a lot of systems, helped sort out many issues with systems, fish, plants etc... as well as having quite a few cold froffies and long chats with a wide variety of people from all walks of life... but it started taking up a fair chunk of my time that could've been spent with my family, or on my business, or working on my own house & garden etc.. so I decided to start charging for my services.

I had been contemplating doing so for a while, but it came to a head when I had an electrician doing some work for me. We got talking about AP (he had a system... with issues) and he asked if I could "drop over" and look at his system for him. Now this guy was charging me $130 per hour for his services, so I thought to myself:

a). I'm a tradesperson that's undertaken a 4 year apprenticeship and clocked up the experience just like him.
b). He's charging me for his service... he didn't offer a contra.
c). I have the knowledge and experience in a field he doesn't.
d). Just as he expects to be paid for his time, I deserved to be paid for mine.

...so I said: "Sure, I can do that!... I only charge $66 per hour for consulting visits, minimum of 1hr, broken down into 15 minutes increments after that!"...

His response: "$66 dollars an hour!!!"... Needless to say, I didn't get to consult on his AP problems.

While I still get asked quite often if I can "drop over" and look at someone's system for them, since I started advising people that I charge for my services, I've only done one paid consult... yes... one!

The electrician spent a couple of hours at my place, didn't impart any of his knowledge, didn't leave me with any useful information that I could use in the future etc... the only thing he left me was $340 lighter in the pocket (some was parts).

Also, I recently had the belts changed on my Patrol and a cooling system flush and refill... I could've done it myself in a couple of hours... but it cost $430, of which only $95 was parts... they charged me 2.5 hrs at $130ph... for a job that didn’t even require a qualified mechanic.

Another example, even though I'm a Horticulturist, I went through a stage of having someone mow my lawns for me. I watched one day as he and his young offsider, mowed, edged and whipper snipped my lawns, as well as two other houses in the street, without having to even move his ute & trailer. My lawns were the smallest of the three by far and he used to charge me $36, I know he charged the guy across the road $48, and the other would've been about the same I'm guessing... so around $132. They did all three and were packed up and gone in well under an hour... and that guy doesn't even need a trade qualification... and certainly didn't impart any knowledge on me... yet people are happy to pay him that amount every fortnight or so.

So how much is AP experience and knowledge worth?... How much do people honestly believe is a reasonable hourly rate for someone with qualifications and experience to “consult” on problems with residential sized AP systems?... If they can save you hundreds, even thousands of dollars when setting up a system, or prevent the death of hundreds of dollars worth of fish, or simply impart some useful AP knowledge that would otherwise take years of trial & error to accrue... how much is that worth?

If you own or work in a AP buisness its probably expected that there is a level of consultancy for free, especially if you have purchased a system from them, and probably a little ongoing assistance. Id say BYAP/Cheidy would offer similar, I know Joel and Faye have mentioned many times in the past about people calling in asking for help so I would think that would be part of the buisness. But if someone walks in, buys a bag of hydroton then asks for someone to come over on the weekend or after hours to help figure out why their syphons arent working on their home made system, well thats a different story.

Ive helped a lot of friends and aquiantances design, build and run systems. But that has always been just because I enjoy it and I want people to succeed at it. Every one of those people have offered me a couple of beers at the end of the day, and we talk about AP a bit more. Its a great social thing and it spreads the word. But I dont consider that consulting because Im not a proffessional in that field and Im not charging for my time.

Id say what throws a spanner in the works for AP consultants is live forums. Any problem you have can be posted and in a matter of minutes you have 10 different options to resolve the issue and Id say 95% of issues are dealt with and rectified, and that form of consultancy is free, its just not hands on.

so we are all consultants?

Yep, and Joel needs to start paying us.

joel could setup donations and after server costs are paid, the rest could be split up amongst us consultants based on post count.

$5 per right answer
$3 per bullshit answer with smiley face

What about a detailed answer?