Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

If good people don't run for public office bad people will and it will be the good peoples fault for letting it happen.

Same with lobbying. Anyone can lobby but the thing is most people are too lazy to get involved in the political process. People who lobby professionally would have no significant power if the so called down trodden poor actually rose up and got involved in how there country is run.

Democracy is only representative when your representative actually has some idea how you want them to represent you.

Slightly idealized view point I think Stuart.

Anyone can lobby? No. Most people are trying to eke out a living working hard to pay their bills, they don't have the time or resources to lobby, so it's a bit unfair to say that these people are just lazy. How can your average Joe compete with a team of highly resourced lobbyists payed millions to lobby politicians full time? Who will pay them to spend time lobbying instead of working.

This is where it all goes wrong, things that don't make money, don't get a say. Classic point, the environment. Plenty of people making massive amounts of money from environmental destruction and degradation. THese companies can throw buckets of money at lobbying the government, because they will get bigger buckets of money back. The environment doesn't have any money, doesn't have a voice. It relies on a few people who spend their own time and money trying to counter industries seeking to take advantage of the environment. They make no money from it, and they are demonized by the media as "bloody greenies".

Our political systems are farcical, he who has the most money wins, he who can pay for the media, pays for the marketing gurus to provide the right spin, pays for the lobbyists, pays for the kickbacks, sorry incentives, wins...

I agree to an extent that the general populous are apathetic when it comes to politics, but how can they be anything but apathetic when the whole system is broken... You want to play a game of cards when the deck is stacked against you? Whats the point, you have lost before you even decide to play.

Back in the day and the day being Dickensian England people were more overworked had less money and less time, while employers had more disproportionate power over their employees. The gap between rich and poor both economically and politically was massive. The reason people are so apathetic today is because relatively speaking they are not in enough pain to be bothered to do anything.

Deomcracies are by and large led by the people that make the effort. At the moment this is mostly the lobbyists, media and those that employ them. It doesn't have to be that way. If more people were to write to their MPs, organise petitions (real ones not clickactisms), start or join a political party and the like then the influence of the paid lobbyists would be diminished.

When people are complaining about the political system it often turns out that they are not involved in it.

How many letters have you written to your state and federal MPs, Senators and relevant ministers? If people have time to write posts on a forum or face book then they have time to write to their MP.

Also it is surprisingly easy to get an appointment to see your MP both federal and State most often because they are not that busy seeing constituents.

2........

Yeah ok, and did you do it? Did it do any good?

As I said, I agree most people are very apathetic when it comes to politics.. My dad spent his whole life lobby for causes, fighting, meeting politicians, etc. In the end, the stress of it all, the latest being fighting against the poor location of a local hospital where he lived, was a major contributing factor in his death.

Just because people are apathetic does not mean they deserve to be taken advantage of..

While I feel partly responsible for derailing this thread; and I accept responsibility for my grand daughter, when she is in my house and on my computer. I do not consider myself as one of the so called down trodden poor.

Less wealthy I may be (well am) but down trodden, I don't think so.

Now can we get back to Lycra or cycling or giving Martin a hard time (well deserved) or whatever this thread was all about?

There obviously has been a few posts since I started this.
(1)Politicians make Laws
(2)Bureaucrats, or the appropriate authority, enforce the Act or the Law.
(3)Courts determine a legal dispute, according to the Law or precedent.

If the Minister (politician) has a place (decision) under the Act or Law this should be without any political or party interference.

To paraphrase Socrates, democracy sucks, but it sure beats the alternative. Yes lobyiests have undue influence, authorities are selective about how they enforce the laws, and a highly paid attorney will likely get you cleared of whatever charges that you get after that. At least there is not an individual that can change policy on a whim. Not an individual that doesn't care weather your wealth came from the tip of a sword, or the sweat of your brow (as my wife's grandfathers limited wealth came from) and take it all away. Do I think CEOs make too much money? Yes. I think that it is even more ridiculous that bad CEOs that have driven companies into the ground get rewarded by by being hired by other companies to lead them. I think that there should be a cap as to how much more a CEO makes compared to the median income of the employees of that company. It will never happen. In the mean time, I will judge these people by how they treat me, someone who works in retail, as opposed to how much wealth they have. The individual that I brought up has never treated me in a way that has made me dislike him, in fact he has always been respectful. There are individuals that treat me like a servant, not for long though even though I am in customer service I am not a servant. He is not one of those. I have another customer that made his fortune from video games, also a nice guy. Another one of my customers is an ex congressman from the opposite political party from me, still a good guy (it is funny how his voting record would be a 180 from mine, yet things that he does in his own life are actually quite good). Some of my customers are parasites too. I just prefer not to judge based on their income. ( though the customer who own the strip mines and cattle ranches is a tough one for me, he has always been nice to me, but strip mines I have a hard time with)

By it's self of course not and as long as the majority of my fellow citizens remain apathetic will not. The thing is that I can't do nothing in good conscience.

However, just as my single letter does not make much difference so to does encouraging people to write their own letters does little but there is the chance that I may inspire others to act and they may inspire more to act until there is movement to which politicians will respond.



This is true but they should not be surprised when they are.

Oh that was funny, poor Martin.

Pretty sure that was Churchill. Given the way things seem to be going with China and Russia we could do with another Churchill.



Worse they often get payouts to leave the first company.

This is also an example of citizens of a democracy (shareholders in a financial democracy) not exercising their responsibilities. I'm not so sure of America but in Australia vast swaths of our corporations are owned by the citizens through their superannuation funds. Rather than exercising their rights and responsibilities as shareholders they hand their securities (in more than one sense) over to a small group of individuals that they allow them to rule over their financial lives. Then people are surprised that that small group of individuals have created a system that suits themselves. It is all too easy to be corrupted by such power when they are not even asked to be accountable.

Before we judge them too harshly we as citizens of our respective democracies (both financial and political) are responsible for this. I can't remember the individual that had a sign placed on his desk "the buck stops here" but it was a noble philosophy. The thing is it is not really true. Ultimately a CEO is not responsible because the responsibility for placing them in their position was that of the directors. Nor is it the directors because they were placed in their positions by the shareholders which is where true ultimate responsibility lies.

In Australia the citizens of Australia are responsible for the actions of our Government. What our government has and is trying to do to our neighbours (steal their oil and gas) to whom we owe a debt of honour, the East Timoreese, is appalling but we barely it hear about it in our media. Similarly our treatment of refugees, irrespective of whether we should let them into the country or not the Australian Government has signed a the United Nations treaty on the treatment of refugees. If you believe that we should not except refugees under the terms of the treaty then you should lobby the government to de-ratify the treaty. All citizens are party to and responsible for the acts of their government and merely decrying their actions is not enough to absolve one of that responsibility. Even taking action is not enough the responsibility persists and endures. Sadly though, all too often, people are unaware of or deny their responsibilities as citizens and content themselves with mere complaints.

I have a feeling we will be standing on the same soapbox about East Timor. I first heard about it as a senior in highschool as a member of Amnesty International.

Yep, it's all my fault... It's my fault that we bugged East Timor's offices during negotiations... It's my fault that the government has pushed a deal through that has quite ridiculous maritime boundaries, it's my fault that ASIO raided the ex-spy's lawyers offices and stole, sorry, siezed all the "dangerous" documents...

Damn I really must be more in tune with what our spy organizations are doing... It's really lapse of me..

Actually it is not your fault but it is your shared responsibility. There is a subtle difference.

I'm assuming that was a while ago Ron. Have you heard the latest?

"not for long though even though I am in customer service."

That's stretching it a bit Ron. Piracy involves taking money etc, with, usually, a bit of violence.
Customer service involves taking money, usually, without the latter.

Martin is very quiet; possibly frightening the local wildlife with his predatory looking lycra underwear (it is Sunday)