Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I really don't want to touch this but...



Get good advice from someone or someones who know what they are talking about.

NA announcements like the one you made above just fill me with dread. Of all the people on this forum how many do you think are qualified to offer the advice you seem to be providing. Of those how many have enough skill and experience to actually charge for their advice.

So many people on this forum have run a system in their backyards for several years. They have harvested multiple harvests of fish and many harvests of many different fruits and vegetables. You haven't even done that.

You are asking for information for free so that you can then charge people a fee for your service. What is more is that the very good advice you have been given you have ignored or dismissed which means that you won't be passing on crucial information to your customers that they will need.

Given all this what do you expect us to do/say.

This is Joel's forum he sets the rules but I'd like it if you didn't posts these sort of posts. Its upsetting and I feel obligated to help the poor farmers that you appear to be taking advantage of. I feel obligated to speak up so that others reading your posts on the forum are not led astray by your confidence which masks your lack of experience and knowledge.

NA announcements like the one you made above just fill me with dread.[/quote]
Stuart, I'm sad and wondering what went wrong in my above post?

To me, Aquaponics is hugely over thought by some experts making it enormously expensive and out of reach of the common man. I believe it can be made lot more easier... can be started with minimum amount of money... minimum amount of time... and the future of aquaponics looks just as promising for a common man, if not more.

OR.. will it continue as a hobby of elite? What do you think?

agreed,

there is some stigma or residual hate on here for some certain operations/people etc

I dont know the whole story nor do i care but i think it degrades a lot of the posts that are made when people come asking for information that might slightly resemble these other groups.

Hugely over thought.. enormously expensive... out of the reach of the common man... an elite hobby....

WTF? ... How can you say that....

With nearly 10000 members... and nearly a decade of members FREELY sharing information.. and building systems.. often very cheaply from recycled materials...

This forum has been hugely involved and responsible for the FREE sharing of information about aquaponics...

Even producing and offering.. for FREE... a complete IBC manual.. and numerous "how to build" videos...

As have other forums.. such as Travis Hughey's Barrelponics site and Yahoo group... (hard to find a simpler/cheaper system)

99% of all your so called hobby "elitists".. FREELY share information about aquaponics...

So that people who are new to the idea can benefit.. and build working systems...

The other 1% seek to take that FREE information... not for personal gain.... so that they can become part of the hobby elite...

But to SELL it to other people... for personal financial gain... (even if they have little knowledge or experience)..

I'm going out on a limb... and suggesting that you're not part of the 99% hobby elite.. and have never intended to be...

Having re-read your post Nano.. and thought about it... perhaps what you're asking isn't really about the common man implementing aquaponics in the backyard..as a means of producing some fish & veges for their families...

Perhaps it's more about small farmers... and small lots...

Well, by your own postings... many are already either producing fish in pond based aquaculture.. or veges in small farm based allotments...

Can a RAS style system produce more fish than a pond based aquaculture system?... perhaps, but it involves a lot more cost and experience IMO...

And the scales are probably tipped in favour of pond based aquaculture... particularly in poorer countries, where power is unreliable, tanks etc harder to source and expensive...but land/labour are probably cheap..

Can a small farmer produce more produce... by using nutrient rich water.. to grow their crops...

Absolutely... and there's many methods and peoples through out "third world countries".. in particular... that already do so...in one form or another...

Can the two be integrated... simply, cheaply... absolutely.. and again it is.. all over Asia... Tilapia in rice paddies etc...

Can it be done in such a way that it becomes more "closed loop".. or "aquaponics"... and reclaim/reuse the water...

Probably... but soil based systems make it a lot harder... and costly... and probably less controllable...

Can it be done with enclosed type RAS and container growing systems...

Absolutely.... but scale brings cost proportionally.. and management and experience are proportionate as well...

Can it be done on a "commercial" scale...

Undoubtedly... but that involves a cost ... experience.. and management...much higher than any "hobby elite"

ATM, I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Some people will not take advice if it is given freely, ie if its free it is worthless.
Providing the fee is merely to recoup expenses (not wages) I am not unhappy with that, and providing that the advice given is based on the scientific explanation of how cycling actually occurs and how AP works and there are no expectations of profit.

Not sure who you are agreeing with ferozaj but one of the things that sets this forum apart is how it is relatively free of animosity and encouraging of freedom of speech.

I really don't know where NA is coming from because in one breath he gives the impression that he is just trying to help yet in another he talks about running workshops that people have to pay to attend.

If we give him the benefit of the doubt and lets assume his motives are pure and altruistic and that his untested theories and AP designs will work can he justify charging others to attend his workshops. If his ideas turn out to work after they have been tested surely then is the time to start thinking about how to get some value out of his work and not before. Why does he feel can sell advice and at the same time ask for free advice on what to teach his customers?

How can someone in good conscience take money off people who can ill afford to spend it and provide them with information that they haven't even studied sufficiently to understand the issues and challenges involved. Who doesn't even know what growth rates he should be observing in his first lot of fish that he has only been growing for a few months in his first system that was built only several months ago.

Now if his ideas turn out to work then they will be revolutionary but that is because they are so radically different from our understanding of plant and fish biology and how AP system work. Exactly because they are so radically different from what the majority think is possible is very good reason why he should test his ideas fully before foisting them on others. Precisely because they are so different he should also educate himself on the conventional aquaculture, hydroponic and aquaponic theory and design so that he can educate others on how and why his ideas work and why conventional theory and design is not applicable.

Even if his ideas will work and his basic contentions are unflawed he will have no credibility on this forum and will continue to be viewed as a shiester until he actually manages to demonstrate that he has a clue about what he is talking about. The repeated evidence that he doesn't know what he is doing and the repeated reports of his teaching and commercial activities undermines his credibility and reinforces his reputation.

+1 Stuart

Nicely put. no doubt expresses the sentiments of many others like myself who are less able to articulate our thoughts.

I also think this type of situation will cause some to feel less generous or guarded about the sharing of information.

Thanks for the response, Sleepe.

To clarify a bit, workshop fee is a meager $15 for a full day training (10-6) that includes a classroom session (5 hours), sumptuous lunch with special fried fish, tea/snaps, a small book The Guide to the Future of Farming, and a visit to the demo site (30 km in a bus). Fee was needed to meet up all these expenses. Out of the first 30 participants, 10 have confirmed and are going ahead in executing their DIY AP projects at their locations. We will soon see their stories.

Yes $15 dollars is meager to me but your workshop fee is 1000RS which would work out to be nearly 2 days wage for the average indian in Kerala wouldn't it or are my conversions wrong!

Stuart, I too have a strategic plan.. it is called doing things.... (quote: Herb Kelleher)..

Call me shiester or whatever, I don't worry about people trying to malign my profile in this forum. Someone else also used a similar word. I am a real full time AP farmer who has a working commercial Aquaponic system in a remotest rural corner of India. There are 4000 fishes living in the fish tank and approx. 1500 plants growing without much issues. Not a single fish died in these 75 days. Some of you experts predicted fish death in 2 weeks though. Harvested many vegetables.. For the fist mega fish harvest, we will need to wait until Feb 2014. I am expecting a min of 2500 kg fish from our fish tank.

Workshop fee, I mentioned before. It is basically to introduce AP but we try to cover as much as possible in one day.
Introducing Aquaponics
Biology – pond dynamics, types of fish, types of plants, seedling production, fish culture techniques, plant nutrients, feeding, disease and insect control
Physics – components, design of fish pond, grow beds, cost-effective construction techniques, plumbing guidelines, aerator sizing, siphon operations
Chemistry – water chemistry and quality testing, nitrification cycle
Mathematics – important ratios, stocking rates, economics, budgeting, cost/benefit analysis
Many other topics - harvesting, marketing, etc.

I come to online forums to continue my AP learning. After every visit to BYAP and other online AP resources, I grow stronger and confident to continue my AP goals. It is up to you... to continue giving moral support or to continue cursing or to ask mods to ban me again.

1000RS... 50 people at a time... that's 1/3 of the annual wage for the average worker.... for a day's work... no wonder you're so determined to pursue this mis-direction...

You could have given them a half day workshop, a tour of the demo farm...

And a complete IBC system and 30 fish.... to get them started...

Aquaponics research and development my....rrrrrr's ... sorry, but you don't have the benefit of my doubts...


And I certainly wont be providing you with any "inputs"... inputs that you should know before embarking on this path of promoting something which you constantly reinforce you know nothing about...

Hi Seamonkey, State average is much lower... approx. 5 days wage. You are exactly right on middle class/farmer wages. Above middle class/rich/who are on the power (politicians), etc. it is much higher.

That's become transparently clear.. even to the most generous of readers...


No you're not, a full time farmer running a "commercial aquaponic system"... wouldn't have the time.. or the need to run workshops...

You haven't harvested or sold a fish yet... and probably haven't harvested or sold very much produce...

You have "an idea.. with projected potential"... running for a couple of months... which you're promoting the hell out of.. using this forum (partially) to do so...

And a book about the future of farming.. that you wrote yourself...

So that's the equivalent of about $400AU+.. for a one day workshop...

That's more than I've ever charged for a 2 day intensive workshop... more than almost anyone charges...

That's the equivalent daily rate that Murray Hallam et al.. charge for a 4 day "commercial" training workshop...


Heck I only paid $280.. for two days with Tom Losordo & Wilson Lennard....

And received over 200 pages of notes from the guru of aquaculture... plus a CD full of technical info and spreadsheets...


WOW!!! ... your alturistic benevolence towards your fellow countrymen is breathtaking... NOT...