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 Post subject: Air Pump V Wave maker
PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 16:22 
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Hi All pat from Eire back again with more questions:
I am struggling to get a decent air pump worth the money and all the ones that can be got from Amazon UK don't give Kpa or Psi as part of their spec only lt's/hr.
Which would be better to use especially after reading a thread on air bubble sizes, air pumps or wave makers as it strikes me that the air bubble only collapses and gives up its 02 when it breaks the surface of the water so would vigoriousley agitating the surface of the water do the same job.
Your thoughts please
pat


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 20:42 
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Yes,it's the total surface area of the water surface for oxygen transference,so as the bubble from an air stone break the surface they increase the surface area,agitation works in the same way. Fish or prawn farms use paddle wheels to agitate the surface to ensure oxygen take up in the same manner.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 20:48 
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I don't believe it only happens on the surface of the water, that theory makes no sense. It happens at the surface of any air. There is a difference. The surface of the bubble traveling through the water is exactly the same as the surface of the water. Oxygen is transferred to the water at any point where water comes in contact with air whether that is the surface of the water, or the surface of the air bubble.

If someone really believes it only takes place on the surface of the water, then please explain to me how the surface of the water is different than the surface of a bubble.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 21:10 
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When does the bubble burst ? Surely at the surface,how does a bubble transfer oxygen as its traveling up through the water,on a still pond or lake where is the oxygen transference if its not through the surface. Please explain to me how oxygen is transferred into the water if not through the surface ?


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 21:25 
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LOW OXYGEN AND POND AERATION
Updated from, World Aquaculture, 24(2): 108-109

(view also as PDF)

William A. Wurts, Senior State Specialist for Aquaculture
Kentucky State University Cooperative Extension Program
http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/Wurtspage.htm


Water can hold a limited amount of oxygen. That is determined by atmospheric pressure, temperature and salinity. In a natural setting, oxygen is added to water by atmospheric diffusion at the surface, by wind circulation (augmented surface diffusion) and by photosynthesis (oxygen produced by phytoplankton or algae). The oxygen content of water increases with increasing atmospheric pressure and decreasing temperature and salinity. The amount of oxygen in water is measured as milligrams per liter (mg/l) dissolved oxygen (DO).


Oxygen Depletion

A number of conditions may develop which result in oxygen depletion, DO at levels insufficient (less than 3 mg/l) to support aquatic life (e.g. fish). Oxygen depletions are typically associated with:

1. Hot, cloudy, still weather is common from the end of July to the beginning of September. High water temperature (86o F or greater) reduces oxygen holding capacity. Cloud cover limits available light, slowing or halting photosynthetic oxygen production. No wind stops pond circulation and restricts surface diffusion of atmospheric oxygen.

Warm water increases fish consumption of oxygen by accelerating their metabolic rate. Fish are ectotherms (cold blooded); therefore, body temperature and activities are regulated by water temperature. Fish biomass (total weight in pond) and oxygen needs are usually greatest during the hot months of late summer.

2. Sudden death of phytoplankton or algal bloom, "bloom crash", may result from insufficient light (e.g. cloud cover) for photosynthesis, inadequate pond nutrients (a bloom too dense to be supported by available nutrients and oxygen) and/or bloom senescence (the plant cell line becomes too old to continue reproduction). Oxygen is consumed or depleted when dead phytoplankton/algae decay. During the nighttime hours, a dense phytoplankton bloom can remove all oxygen from the water for respiration (to breathe) alone. When a bloom crash occurs, the water appears to have become "black" or clear overnight.

3. Pond stratification or turnover. During summer months in deep ponds (8 feet or greater), the upper 4-6 feet of the water column warms quickly and becomes less dense or lighter than deep water. Because the upper layer is warmer and lighter, it does not mix with the cool, deep water. The cool water near the bottom becomes stagnant; oxygen is depleted and toxic compounds may be produced by bacteria and decaying organic matter. The deep layer remains unoxygenated (anoxic) because of stratification (layering). A sudden, heavy rain (2-3 inches or greater) or a strong cold front ("Blue Norther") can rapidly cool and/or mix (wind turbulence) the upper layer. The now cooler or circulating upper layer sinks or mixes and causes the deep anoxic layer to rise above or combine with the surface water. That depletes or reduces oxygen in upper waters where fish are being cultured.

4. Organic waste decomposition. When fish biomass becomes large in commercial ponds (late summer), waste and organic loads (ammonia, nitrite, feces and uneaten feed) can become high. Wastes and organics will decompose. That requires oxygen, often more than is available in pond water. Also, high waste loads can stimulate an algal bloom too dense to be supported by the pond (discussed above).

These situations can occur alone or in interrelated combinations. As just discussed, conditions may develop which remove oxygen from water faster than natural processes can replace it. When they occur, emergency or supplemental aeration may be required to bring oxygen back up to tolerable (3-5 mg/l) or safe (5 mg/l or greater) levels.


Aeration Equipment

Electric or mechanical aeration is used to place as much oxygen into contact with water as economically practical. That is normally accomplished by mixing large quantities of water (both volume and total surface area) with atmospheric oxygen. Several aeration devices are commercially available. Most aeration equipment requires electricity (preferably, three phase or 230 volt) or fuel powered engines (tractors or pumps) at the pond bank. Boyd and Ahmad (Auburn University); and Engle (University of Arkansas, Pine Bluff) and Hatch (Auburn University) have conducted individual studies rating pond aerators for performance and economic efficiencies, respectively. The following is a general summary that rates existing aeration equipment from highest to lowest efficiency, both performance and economics:

1. Electric paddle wheel aerators. A paddle wheel similar to that of the old river boat circulates and mixes pond water. An electric motor powers the device. These aerators can supply 1.8-4.9 pounds of oxygen/horsepower-hour (lb O2/hp-hr). Most models will supply from 3.5-4.9 lb O2/hp-hr. A tractor operated paddle wheel is effective for emergency situations but is not practical for supplemental or continuous operation.

2. Electric pump-sprayer aerators. Large volumes of water are pumped or sprayed over the pond surface. These aerators can supply 1.5-3.2 lb O2/hp-hr. While tractor and engine powered versions of these devices are effective, as above, they are only practical for emergency aeration.

3. Electric propeller aspirator pump aerators. Water is pumped to the surface and mixed with air by propeller blades. These aerators can supply 2.1-3.1 lb O2/hp-hr.

4. Experimental aerators. A number of experimental aerators are currently being developed; some of which may or may not be cost effective. One promising design is the airlift aerator. Air bubbles produced by a centrifugal air blower (electric) act as pneumatic pistons; pushing or drawing water up a pipe or stack as they rise and expand. Field studies demonstrated that a 1 hp blower can pump approximately 750-820 gallons per minute to the surface using individual 3-4 inch diameter PVC pipes. Extensive field trials and economic analyses will be needed to test the practicality of experimental equipment.


Aeration Methods

As a general rule, 1 to 2 hp of electric aeration should be available for each surface acre (4 acre-feet) of intensive aquaculture production. Aeration equipment should be placed along the longest pond bank. Aerators should be started before DO falls below 3 mg/l. Oxygen levels are lowest just before sunrise each morning. If affordable and as a preventive measure, aerators should be operated at night during prolonged periods (2-3 days or longer) of cloudy, hot or rainy weather; immediately preceding and throughout a sudden cold front passage; and when dense phytoplankton or algal blooms have developed.

1. Emergency -- aerators are operated temporarily when oxygen falls to or below 3 mg/l, during a crisis. Tractor powered paddle wheels or irrigation pumps are typically used. Aeration is continued until oxygen levels have stabilized at 5 mg/l or higher.

2. Supplemental -- aerators are operated whenever conditions leading to oxygen depletion have developed, or nightly during the last 2-3 months of the season. Aerators are turned on between 10:00 pm-midnight and left running until 10:00 am the next morning or until oxygen levels have stabilized at 5 mg/l or higher. Supplemental aeration is recommended for intensive production densities above 2,000 lbs/acre.

3. Continuous -- aeration equipment is operated continuously (24 hours daily). Some producers manage highly intensive fish farms (greater than 5,000 lbs/acre) and run electric aerators continuously from July to the end of September or until water temperatures have dropped to 68-65o F and are falling. The economics of that practice should be carefully evaluated.

The best way to deal with low oxygen is to take action before a problem develops, good management. If budget constraints prohibit purchase of aeration equipment, no more than 2,000 fish should be stocked per acre. As aerators become more efficient, it may become economically feasible to aerate continuously -- 24 hours daily. That might significantly increase the quantity of fish commercially produced in 4 acre-feet of water.

Did a quick google and copied and pasted this from the world agriculture might be of interest to substantiate my post,especially the first paragraph.
If you still disagree please give your explanation as to where oxygen transference takes place.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 21:31 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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The bubble itself is surface area between air and water and so therefore some gas transfer between the air and the water will take place at the bubble. But the bubbles have an added means of helping increase the aeration of the water in that as they rise to the surface they are drawing with them the water from the bottom of the water mass up to the surface where it can better be aerated. This mixing of the water as well as the bubbles themselves and the agitation of the surface area ALL increase the aeration of the water. It is not just taking place at the bubble or at the surface where the bubble breaks, it ALL helps. Anything that mixes, splashes, agitates, and circulates the water and exposes the water to air will help increase aeration.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 21:41 
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Correct,that is why the air stone goes to the bottom,it decreases stratification bring low oxygen water up to the surface where oxygen transference can take place.
Ok with this in mind on a still pond where is the oxygen transference ? Disregarding the oxygen produced by photosynthesis of water plants.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 21:43 
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dasboot wrote:
When does the bubble burst ? Surely at the surface,how does a bubble transfer oxygen as its traveling up through the water,on a still pond or lake where is the oxygen transference if its not through the surface. Please explain to me how oxygen is transferred into the water if not through the surface ?


The oxygen is transferred anytime the air comes in contact with water. The surface of a body of water transfers oxygen to the water, just like the surface of the bubble does as it moves up to the surface. I never said it was not transferred at the surface of the water. I said it was transferred at any point where water meets air, whether that be the surface of the water, or the surface of the bubble. Same difference.

Explain to me how the surface of a bubble is different than the surface of the water.


Last edited by helomech on Sep 23rd, '13, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 21:44 
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TCLynx wrote:
The bubble itself is surface area between air and water and so therefore some gas transfer between the air and the water will take place at the bubble. But the bubbles have an added means of helping increase the aeration of the water in that as they rise to the surface they are drawing with them the water from the bottom of the water mass up to the surface where it can better be aerated. This mixing of the water as well as the bubbles themselves and the agitation of the surface area ALL increase the aeration of the water. It is not just taking place at the bubble or at the surface where the bubble breaks, it ALL helps. Anything that mixes, splashes, agitates, and circulates the water and exposes the water to air will help increase aeration.



Much better said than I can do. I suck at writing what I am thinking.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 21:46 
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dasboot wrote:
LOW OXYGEN AND POND AERATION
Updated from, World Aquaculture, 24(2): 108-109

(view also as PDF)

William A. Wurts, Senior State Specialist for Aquaculture
Kentucky State University Cooperative Extension Program
http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/Wurtspage.htm


Water can hold a limited amount of oxygen. That is determined by atmospheric pressure, temperature and salinity. In a natural setting, oxygen is added to water by atmospheric diffusion at the surface, by wind circulation (augmented surface diffusion) and by photosynthesis (oxygen produced by phytoplankton or algae). The oxygen content of water increases with increasing atmospheric pressure and decreasing temperature and salinity. The amount of oxygen in water is measured as milligrams per liter (mg/l) dissolved oxygen (DO).


Oxygen Depletion

A number of conditions may develop which result in oxygen depletion, DO at levels insufficient (less than 3 mg/l) to support aquatic life (e.g. fish). Oxygen depletions are typically associated with:

1. Hot, cloudy, still weather is common from the end of July to the beginning of September. High water temperature (86o F or greater) reduces oxygen holding capacity. Cloud cover limits available light, slowing or halting photosynthetic oxygen production. No wind stops pond circulation and restricts surface diffusion of atmospheric oxygen.

Warm water increases fish consumption of oxygen by accelerating their metabolic rate. Fish are ectotherms (cold blooded); therefore, body temperature and activities are regulated by water temperature. Fish biomass (total weight in pond) and oxygen needs are usually greatest during the hot months of late summer.

2. Sudden death of phytoplankton or algal bloom, "bloom crash", may result from insufficient light (e.g. cloud cover) for photosynthesis, inadequate pond nutrients (a bloom too dense to be supported by available nutrients and oxygen) and/or bloom senescence (the plant cell line becomes too old to continue reproduction). Oxygen is consumed or depleted when dead phytoplankton/algae decay. During the nighttime hours, a dense phytoplankton bloom can remove all oxygen from the water for respiration (to breathe) alone. When a bloom crash occurs, the water appears to have become "black" or clear overnight.

3. Pond stratification or turnover. During summer months in deep ponds (8 feet or greater), the upper 4-6 feet of the water column warms quickly and becomes less dense or lighter than deep water. Because the upper layer is warmer and lighter, it does not mix with the cool, deep water. The cool water near the bottom becomes stagnant; oxygen is depleted and toxic compounds may be produced by bacteria and decaying organic matter. The deep layer remains unoxygenated (anoxic) because of stratification (layering). A sudden, heavy rain (2-3 inches or greater) or a strong cold front ("Blue Norther") can rapidly cool and/or mix (wind turbulence) the upper layer. The now cooler or circulating upper layer sinks or mixes and causes the deep anoxic layer to rise above or combine with the surface water. That depletes or reduces oxygen in upper waters where fish are being cultured.

4. Organic waste decomposition. When fish biomass becomes large in commercial ponds (late summer), waste and organic loads (ammonia, nitrite, feces and uneaten feed) can become high. Wastes and organics will decompose. That requires oxygen, often more than is available in pond water. Also, high waste loads can stimulate an algal bloom too dense to be supported by the pond (discussed above).

These situations can occur alone or in interrelated combinations. As just discussed, conditions may develop which remove oxygen from water faster than natural processes can replace it. When they occur, emergency or supplemental aeration may be required to bring oxygen back up to tolerable (3-5 mg/l) or safe (5 mg/l or greater) levels.


Aeration Equipment

Electric or mechanical aeration is used to place as much oxygen into contact with water as economically practical. That is normally accomplished by mixing large quantities of water (both volume and total surface area) with atmospheric oxygen. Several aeration devices are commercially available. Most aeration equipment requires electricity (preferably, three phase or 230 volt) or fuel powered engines (tractors or pumps) at the pond bank. Boyd and Ahmad (Auburn University); and Engle (University of Arkansas, Pine Bluff) and Hatch (Auburn University) have conducted individual studies rating pond aerators for performance and economic efficiencies, respectively. The following is a general summary that rates existing aeration equipment from highest to lowest efficiency, both performance and economics:

1. Electric paddle wheel aerators. A paddle wheel similar to that of the old river boat circulates and mixes pond water. An electric motor powers the device. These aerators can supply 1.8-4.9 pounds of oxygen/horsepower-hour (lb O2/hp-hr). Most models will supply from 3.5-4.9 lb O2/hp-hr. A tractor operated paddle wheel is effective for emergency situations but is not practical for supplemental or continuous operation.

2. Electric pump-sprayer aerators. Large volumes of water are pumped or sprayed over the pond surface. These aerators can supply 1.5-3.2 lb O2/hp-hr. While tractor and engine powered versions of these devices are effective, as above, they are only practical for emergency aeration.

3. Electric propeller aspirator pump aerators. Water is pumped to the surface and mixed with air by propeller blades. These aerators can supply 2.1-3.1 lb O2/hp-hr.

4. Experimental aerators. A number of experimental aerators are currently being developed; some of which may or may not be cost effective. One promising design is the airlift aerator. Air bubbles produced by a centrifugal air blower (electric) act as pneumatic pistons; pushing or drawing water up a pipe or stack as they rise and expand. Field studies demonstrated that a 1 hp blower can pump approximately 750-820 gallons per minute to the surface using individual 3-4 inch diameter PVC pipes. Extensive field trials and economic analyses will be needed to test the practicality of experimental equipment.


Aeration Methods

As a general rule, 1 to 2 hp of electric aeration should be available for each surface acre (4 acre-feet) of intensive aquaculture production. Aeration equipment should be placed along the longest pond bank. Aerators should be started before DO falls below 3 mg/l. Oxygen levels are lowest just before sunrise each morning. If affordable and as a preventive measure, aerators should be operated at night during prolonged periods (2-3 days or longer) of cloudy, hot or rainy weather; immediately preceding and throughout a sudden cold front passage; and when dense phytoplankton or algal blooms have developed.

1. Emergency -- aerators are operated temporarily when oxygen falls to or below 3 mg/l, during a crisis. Tractor powered paddle wheels or irrigation pumps are typically used. Aeration is continued until oxygen levels have stabilized at 5 mg/l or higher.

2. Supplemental -- aerators are operated whenever conditions leading to oxygen depletion have developed, or nightly during the last 2-3 months of the season. Aerators are turned on between 10:00 pm-midnight and left running until 10:00 am the next morning or until oxygen levels have stabilized at 5 mg/l or higher. Supplemental aeration is recommended for intensive production densities above 2,000 lbs/acre.

3. Continuous -- aeration equipment is operated continuously (24 hours daily). Some producers manage highly intensive fish farms (greater than 5,000 lbs/acre) and run electric aerators continuously from July to the end of September or until water temperatures have dropped to 68-65o F and are falling. The economics of that practice should be carefully evaluated.

The best way to deal with low oxygen is to take action before a problem develops, good management. If budget constraints prohibit purchase of aeration equipment, no more than 2,000 fish should be stocked per acre. As aerators become more efficient, it may become economically feasible to aerate continuously -- 24 hours daily. That might significantly increase the quantity of fish commercially produced in 4 acre-feet of water.

Did a quick google and copied and pasted this from the world agriculture might be of interest to substantiate my post,especially the first paragraph.
If you still disagree please give your explanation as to where oxygen transference takes place.


No one is saying oxygen transfer does not take place at the surface. We are all saying it takes place at the surface, the point you are missing is that a bubble is a surface.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 22:07 
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If you think about it on a molecular level, the bubble breaking the surface is the time of least O2 transfer to the water. You need to think about just how that bubble of air moves through the water, and also just what that 'surface' is.

The bubble exists because there is air inside a minimum volume described by the equations of surface tension. At the 'surface' of the bubble is equilibrium - the water pressure is exactly balanced by the air pressure - anything else and the bubble would either expand or collapse. But, and think it through, there is no surface!

At a molecular level you have molecules of O2, N2, CO2 and a few trace gasses in 'contact' with molecules of water. There is no solid 'balloon' to move upwards through the water, instead there is a constant mixture of water and air molecules at the artificial 'surface' - you could describe it as a stream of water molecules moving down past the air molecules, causing a rise of the air.

And those molecules MUST mix - there is nothing to prevent them, no 'skin' or membrane and so they will mix as the bubble travels. The air will reach the surface 'wetter' than it was and the O2 (& other gasses) will dissipate slightly into the surrounding medium.

Now with that molecular view in mind, what happens at the surface? Some extra moist air is released as soon as the surface tension drops enough. The surface area of the water is increased momentarily as the bubble 'pops' - which is where we are told the increased DO comes from.

The problem with that is the 'new' surface area is not just water sitting there, it is water travelling UP as the base of the bubble reaches the surface. I think any possible increase in DO from the bubble reaching the surface is negated by the movement of the very water that is supposed to be receiving the O2.

Disturbing the surface with a paddle wheel or wavemaker is different - air is being trapped inside water and forced under the surface - effectively making travelling bubbles. But rising bubbles don't 'trap air and the base of the bubble reaching the surface will push air away from the water.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 22:19 
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Journeyman wrote:
If you think about it on a molecular level, the bubble breaking the surface is the time of least O2 transfer to the water. You need to think about just how that bubble of air moves through the water, and also just what that 'surface' is.

The bubble exists because there is air inside a minimum volume described by the equations of surface tension. At the 'surface' of the bubble is equilibrium - the water pressure is exactly balanced by the air pressure - anything else and the bubble would either expand or collapse. But, and think it through, there is no surface!

At a molecular level you have molecules of O2, N2, CO2 and a few trace gasses in 'contact' with molecules of water. There is no solid 'balloon' to move upwards through the water, instead there is a constant mixture of water and air molecules at the artificial 'surface' - you could describe it as a stream of water molecules moving down past the air molecules, causing a rise of the air.

And those molecules MUST mix - there is nothing to prevent them, no 'skin' or membrane and so they will mix as the bubble travels. The air will reach the surface 'wetter' than it was and the O2 (& other gasses) will dissipate slightly into the surrounding medium.

Now with that molecular view in mind, what happens at the surface? Some extra moist air is released as soon as the surface tension drops enough. The surface area of the water is increased momentarily as the bubble 'pops' - which is where we are told the increased DO comes from.

The problem with that is the 'new' surface area is not just water sitting there, it is water travelling UP as the base of the bubble reaches the surface. I think any possible increase in DO from the bubble reaching the surface is negated by the movement of the very water that is supposed to be receiving the O2.

Disturbing the surface with a paddle wheel or wavemaker is different - air is being trapped inside water and forced under the surface - effectively making travelling bubbles. But rising bubbles don't 'trap air and the base of the bubble reaching the surface will push air away from the water.


That is very interesting.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 22:41 
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Thank you all for this valuable discussion. I am new to aquaponics and have clearly a lot to learn, thank you so much for this forum.
So in a nut shell both methods work and from your prospective and me with a limited budget, which should I install first the Air Pump or the Wave Maker.
I have a small 1/2 hp air compressor with an equally small air receiver, if I set the pressure guage at 35Kpa (5Psi) and put an air stone at the bottom of the tank this would allow me to see how long the tank of air would last and then install a wave maker, that way I would hopefully have the best of both worlds. I could run the wave maker 24/7 and run the compressor during daylight hrs.

Thank you all for the help


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 23:01 
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Vegipat, I would go with a airpump. Mainly because it will cause the water in the bottom of the tank to move, where a wave maker will add oxygen, but won't really cause the water to move around from top to bottom. At least that is how I see it.


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PostPosted: Sep 23rd, '13, 23:59 
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Hi Helomech,after reading all the posts again I agree and will invest in an Air pump first, thank you for all the help.

pat


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