Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Nope... what there is.... is all on their Facebook timeline.... and website...

Considering this is their first summer... and optimum production period.... I would have thought they'd be posting lots of pics and info showing their "success"... especially with their slated expansion plans...

So they appear to have UVI BYAP hybrid? Fish tanks, degassing tank, solids removal (?) or do they go to the GBs.

Why did/are they have so many problems with their water chemistry and apparently all there fruiting plant growth. A few photos of tomatoes and cucumbers but they are real close ups with the leafy greens or the GH wall as back ground.

Compare that with so many photos from the systems on this forum, whats going on? Not meeting commercial production levels is one thing but not even matching BYAPS (as in home/hobby systems) is another.

I thought this one was a green acre replica but then they were teaching "the best commercial course ever offered" as Murray was pushing it last year. I met them, seemed like nice people.

Ive been hearing more and more people exaggerate how easy it is to produce premium crops via Aquaponics. Someone was saying growing the product was only 20% of the buisness...I think people need to revisit that thought. There's a big difference between plants growing and plants growing better, faster, cheaper and more nutritious than their hydro counterparts.

They're a "flawed media" concept design....pump through an "advanced nutrient distribution system"... no doubt with some proprietry tweeks.... to the media beds... for "mineralisation"....

And despite using the plant produce off cuts for vermicompost tea supplementation..... probably are suffering nutrient profile problems....

And I suspect.... pythium... and/or environmental and pest problems....

Yep, they flew off to the first Green Acres training of the new "best commercial design" trainings... based on the "Friendlies" redefined/"refined" adoption of UVI.... further "redefined" by the "flawed media" concept....

Got some fish... and immediately formed the "Aquaponics Institute".... and announced and began their own training ... again based on the "flawed media" concept....

No doubt due to the split from the "Aquaponics Association"... who subsequently... coincidentally offered a rival training course at the same time... part of which includes offering the plans...

They are probably very nice people... they have a vast array of skills.....

Ranging from "custom furniture installation"... and involvement with "quantum healing"...

"flower essences, tinctures, salves, teas and concoctions out of medicinal plants to benefit healing through connection with nature"....

have "strong sense of earth stewardship" ... enjoy "working with nature to bring humans and earth into balance with each other"....

Are "Master Composter"'s, (certified)... with a "serious love for compost"....

Have their... "own healing arts business"... doing "massage, energy healing, readings, Family Constellation facilitation"....

Teach "evening English class to the local Latino community"... and act as "translator"s during "trainings"...

Have "life experience in the oil field as a drilling fluid engineer and later experience as a consultant and vendor of industrial maintenance supplies"...

Have spent " years ghostwriting for a high tech marketing firm in Silicon Valley.... and as a "collaborative and technical writer for government agencies throughout California"...

And "own a private healthcare practice".. which "is a consciousness-based healing system that helps people awaken to the best possible versions of who they are"....


Then there's Kenji.... who was "Director of Security at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, Director of Security for the Westin San Francisco hotel, a local Police Officer and served 27 years in the U.S. Coast Guard"....

Who at least "grew organic vegetables in his home garden, was a founding member of the Burlingame community garden and has been an avid aquaponics gardener since 2009. "....

Kenji was responsible for producing the beautiful lush growth pictured on the early timeline photos... (pictured foliar spraying the vermicompost tea)....



Amen...... and other than Kenji.... who is probably responsible for that 20%...

I just don't see much plant production or commercial farming experience amongst the rest of the team... as nice a peoples as they might be....

http://www.ouroborosfarms.com/about-us/meet-the-team/

P.S... at this time... they don't sell their fish.... which are just "our “assistant farmers;” we are not selling them for human consumption at this time"....

See... towards the bottom... http://www.ouroborosfarms.com/faqs/

Bottom line Stuart... bunch of well meaning people... caught up in the gossamer spun web of romantic vision.... shackled with a flawed design concept.... by the gossamer spinner....

Propping up their "experimentation"... learning curve".... with training income.... (although I suspect... not enough of it to go around... )

Reading further it seems they have settling thanks and then pumping to the GBs there appeared to be a few errors in their knowledge (eg plants absorbing methane? I've never heard of that not to mention that if the system is producing methane doesn't that mean they have anaerobic decomposition occurring?)

I just do not understand a business model where you can offer training and not have really produced anything.

One of the common questions I used to get talking to investors was "Why hasn't this been done before?" Now it is "Why hasn't it worked before?".

I know some people criticize Rup for his apparent negativity but I just see it as objective observations about all these projects which were never going to work because even if there designs were perfect they never had the scale to make it work.

This doesn't interest me but if some one wanted to get a small "commercial" system up and running then they should go to Alice Springs, Cooperpedie or some other dryland remote town where they will be able to sell their produce for a high enough price so that their tiny economy of scale doesn't hamstring them from the start.

The only reason I would build anything less than 4000m2 was if I had investors backing me with the knowledge that it wouldn't make money but that we would use such a system to attract more investors to build a system that was larger that would have an economy of scale that would allow it to be profitable.

this obviously doesn't conform to large commercial but I thought it was interesting
it item is about a year old so I don't know if its still being done

http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/print-edition/2012/07/06/main-event-caterers-invests-thousands.html?page=all

they are not trying to compete with large companies but it looks like a good thing to supplement a business like theirs.

I can't follow the figures they quote.... if they're saving $4,000 annually... how do they get a return on investment of $80,000.... in two years????

Surely it's 20 years before they even break even... assuming no depreciation.. renovation, repairs etc...

I think it's the valuation that's wrong - from the pictures is looks like a couple of big tanks with some lights and growbeds above them on shelves: $8000 seems more realistic to me.

If it costs them $40,000pa to run it and it produces $80,000 of micro greens every year and if it would have cost them $84000pa to buy those micro greens then they could be paying off the system in 2 years and saving $4000 pa for the first two years and $44,000 there after. Roughly.

A few very important things that some of the "commercial trainings" don't necessarily emphasize enough is SOURCE WATER TESTING!

I think one of the major issues Ouroboros ran into even before hosting Murray's aquaponics institute training is one of water chemistry. BEFORE buying the farm or renting the greenhouse one really should get some lab quality water testing done to figure out what needs to be done about the water before filling the system.

I've been learning lots about water chemistry over the past year since buying my farm.
(FYI, I've been involved in some of these trainings but as far as I'm concerned, I'm teaching basic plumbing and backyard system layout/design.) I don't personally think any 4 or 5 or even 14 day training could possibly teach anyone anything Commercial. Perhaps you could get a basic footing in large scale aquaponics and maybe start learning the first little bit about good husbandry/horticulture practice but there is no way to learn the business/marketing/logistics needed to run it as a business in that time.

I am one of those saying that the actual growing of good quality fish and produce in an aquaponic system is really only about 20% of the overall of making it work as a business. You don't actually make any money just growing the fish and produce.
So I think a good 10% of the business is going to be about the business of budgeting, paperwork, accounting, and regulations.
20% is going to be about harvesting, packaging, chilling, processing, transporting, etc and basically everything else that is required to support selling and marketing.
40% is going to be about SELLING and MARKETING that produce.
10% is going to be devoted to keeping things clean, on schedule and organized.

Of course if you can't manage to produce good product, the rest of it doesn't have a prayer of making the operation work but then again, even if you do produce a great product, if you can't manage to sell it or if you can't keep up with the other things, the business may not be able to succeed either.
Remember that very few new start ups succeed and just surviving past 3 or 5 years doesn't necessarily equal success. Perhaps getting to 7 or 10 years and providing a living for the owners/operators would count with me for success but I don't think we can expect any family farm scale aquaponics operation to make 100% of the income for the family farm. Most Family farms require more diversity than depending on just one crop, or livestock or system since it is just too much to hang your family's survival on one one thing that could fail. I see aquaponics as being a Part of the farm but not necessarily the whole farm.

Lets face it, how many people out there with backyard AP systems decide it's pointless to have Wicking beds or trees int he ground and sell off all their chooks and swear off beef and bacon since it can't be grown in AP?

In any case, I won't be teaching "commercial" aquaponics. I might perhaps teach large scale aquaponic system layout/design someday but I don't even really want to teach that until I'm happier with my own systems (of course there are always new things I want to try as I discover things I do and don't like about the way things operate now.)

4' wide long runs of siphon operated media beds have some major drawbacks for "commercial" production. You just CAN NOT access large plants in a heavily planted bed of that size easily enough.

I agree with you TCL, it's all about the water chemistry! I personally test the water for 16 elements/parameters (5 daily, 11 randomly) just to keep an eye on what is happening in the system before a deficiency might arise or a problem occur.

In regards to Clay beds I would like to list what is worth considering in my experience pro's and con's;
-Some type of plants perform better in clay beds than DWC
-They aid bio-filtration mechanism but could lead to anaerobic condition.
-They host friendly worms but could be an harbour for parasites too.
-some crops are easier to manage/handle in Clay bed rather than DWC (beans and climbing plants)
-Clay beds(F&D only) could cost more to set up than DWC but they do not need aeration pump 24/7

I'm a tall guy (1.8m) and reaching the centre of GB is not an issue to me, but it give me bad back when I spend long time tendering the plant in the DWC...... yes I have a movable PVC pipe-frame table to place the raft on when I work on them but sometimes it's not worth to lift up an heavy loaded boards just to remove a couple of blotched leaves!
NFT would be great for the task but then has it's issue with temperature and clogging.

Temperature issues with NFT are a consideration... but can be controlled...

But clogging.... please explain?

That's it's all depending on the outlet/inlet diameter.
Outlet could get clogged with decaying root-mass and water will overflow, unless you are using 1.5" minimum pipe diameter and check the flow daily.
Inlet pipes will have a sort of biofilm build up and over time will restrict flow, unless you run crystal clear water or use 13mm inlet pipe diameter.
Form your experience Rupe, how do you intend to control NFT temp without using energy monsters Water-Chiller or restrict the sunlight with shade cloth compromising light efficiency?