Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Stuart has had a set back but several people in a number of government departments and financial institutions are offering words of encouragement and advice.

Much of that advice is along the lines of what Rup has been talking about. Scale is everything.

I don't believe that a business needs to get all its income from sale of fish and veg to be a commercial ap business. In fact those that are surviving by selling training and such are commercial. The thing that interests me is can ap commercial compete with other production methods. If a business does both it is possible via keeping good accounts to distinguish between the costs of different income streams and hence the profits. So even if a business does sell training and related products it could still demonstrate that it was making a profit on its AP production.

I understand your thought process Stuart...

But my conjecture is that to be profitable on its AP production... requires a level of scale... and time commitment... that basically precludes running training workshops...

Apart from which..... why on earth would a profitable business... run training sessions to... train competitors.... WTF???

You might do so as part of a franchise package....

I don't dispute that there might be aquaponics businesses that are surviving, and thus "commercial" due to offering training....

I just question the concept... and representation... that they are teaching "commercial aquaponics".... and a supposed "profitable" systems operational methodology..... when in fact they're not... and the model is not....

And, as above... the wisedom... and longevity... of training the opposition...

Government Departments, Industry Bodies... and financial institutions... all have a vested interest in seeing proposals succeed....

And all of them know the sorts of risks & returns inherent in food production businesses... and the scale necessary to achieve "profitability"...

Fisheries, and/or aquaculture consultants... will recommend a minimum scale of operation.. to be profitable...

Hydroponic industry bodies... and consultants... will do likewise....

They know... from several decades of history, experience... including failures, scams, hype etc.... what works, and what doesn't work.... size wise...

"Commercial aquaponics"... is just going through the same (sadly) growing pains.... where romance and snake oil are more prevalent than any real cold hard cash figures... or real cost balance spread sheets/budgets...

Yes to the above.

Sorry rupe, i concede...been a while since I checked on their status...and I'd been drinking

We may have to issue a PUI.

Posting Under Influence

Was the OP's question.....

He/She didn't want to know about profitable large scale commercial operations, but only "cool" ones. Anybody?

I wouldn't trust words of encouragement and advice from bankers or government departments. The former just try to maneuver you in a position where they gain complete control over your assets and future earnings with the intention to take it all in the end. The latter are civil servants and have no bloody clue about business to start with, since their nature is to have a cosy, nice and secure job, with secure pension and benefits all for life. No risks involved. Hardly the attitude of an entrepreneur, I would say.

Take advice from seasoned business men and encouragement from those who love you and you can trust. Better for your future....

Interesting statistics about startup failure rates for businesses. Was a quick find, but sure there are more stats like these to find on the web.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/startup-f ... -industry/

plus another one

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/2 ... 04919.html

I earn points for that..right?

I will listen to advice from government departments especially when they are offering me grants once I hit certain performance hurdles.

I will listen to advice from bankers and investors who are offering me money because there is no way I am going to get a commercial system done out of my resources.

The last person I loved and trusted with money in a business sense walked with all the money (JUST TO BE REALLY CLEAR I AM NOT REFERRING TO THE SETBACK TO BUILDING A COMMERCIAL AP SYSTEM different business).

Changing tack a little.

These guys have posted there prices for commercial systems:

http://aquaponics.com/page/commercial-systems

I would like to discuss the numbers for a number of reasons.

First lets us only consider the biggest ones on offer the "commercial 1200". How much would a hydro system cost that could produce 150,000 heads of lettuce? Baring in mind that the price of $98,000 does not include the greenhouse and some other crucial equipment.

Baring in mind that the 1200 needs a GH of around 1300m2 and minimum commercial hydro is 10,000m2 let us assume 8 systems are installed to get scale and give 10,400m2 which would give 17.4t per year of fish production. How much would a tilapia RAS installation cost capable of matching that production?

I have my own ideas and figures but I would like to hear other people thoughts especially if they are derived from experience in the HP or AQ industry.

I think we do need an intermediate level. That definition of "commercial agriculture" seems to basically say that it is only commercial if it is selling only to wholesale outlets and is a big corporation. The only other option they seem to list for agriculture is subsistence agriculture where the people are growing food for themselves to subsist on and largely not dealing with money at all.

So where is the middle ground? The market gardens and small truck farms? The farms that are growing enough that they are selling it and gaining some profit beyond just enough money to keep growing it.

Now a lot of the small farming operations (aquaponic, hydroponic and old fashion farming) do not necessarily bring in enough profit that the entire family can sit around on the internet while only one or two members of the family work ONLY on the farm. Most farms have more diverse income streams than just one crop only. So where do these farms that do get a certain amount of their income from aquaponic farm product sales fall. As far as the tax man is concerned they are commercial if they are making money, they need to pay taxes on it. Is that profit somehow disqualified from being commercial aquaponic proceeds because it isn't enough profit to put the whole family through college all on it's own?

I do agree that many people have stars in their eyes when they first get into aquaponics thinking that they will some how be able to retire on the proceeds of a backyard aquaponics system. Or they think they will have enough excess produce out of their 2 x 6 meter greenhouse to make a substantial increase in their retirement income. Many people don't have a concept of how much it will take and the truth is they probably won't until they try.

AND you are very right Rupe when you say something to the effect of "You don't make ANY money growing veggies, You only make money when you sell them."

EB is right when he says being successful probably has more to do with the person doing it than with what they are doing.

Where most farmers run into problems is that they are good at growing things but poor at business and marketing. Trick is to find a good market that is cost effective to sell to and grow what is in demand by that market and manage to grow/deliver it for less money than you can get for it. Here is where the scale is key. If you only make a tiny profit per item, then you have to sell a huge amount to really make it worthwhile. If you can make a larger profit per item, then it might actually be possible for a small 1/2 person operation to not require both people to have other sources of income as well just to pay the internet, TV and other bills.( and so on)

this whole argument makes no sense to me

wanna make the thing into a business...go for it

don't wanna...don't

neither one makes the other go away... I just don't get the exclusionary part of it

so I'm obviously missing something

Hi TCL
I think your post is definying the most..............

But I wonder what is the problem with grants or the like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unit ... ice%29.svg

where in the democratic west is ir posible to be a farmer without grants or subsidies ?

AP is a life style and you can make a living out of it by creating your own market IMO
but you can not expect to beat or combat the established the tradisional ways without grants/subsidies ?
I know Newsealand and Australia "lost" their farm subsidies but the rest of the western world still have them and probabbly will for a long time yet. So the hole disscusion bla bla is a bit odd IMO.
Why should AP be profitable big buisniz when traditional farming aint ?

cudoz to all of you that compete in a regulated marked without the subsidies like you TCL

cheers