Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Not at all.... I'm not arguing for mega-corporation... or giant agri-business...

But I am arguing for a sufficient level of scale... that meets criteria like...



Sorry, but I just don't believe a one/two person operation can provide a "decent salary and return on investment"...... without a supplementary income stream or two...

And to achieve the necessary efficiencies of scale to upsize to paid labour/wholesale pricing.... is just a whole different ball game... and scale of operation...

But the other part of my objection to the current "commercial aquaponics" romance...

Is the suggested design concepts.... and the complete lack of optimization/profitability... of the fish component of the operations...

This debate has been going on for a few years now....

You'd think that by now someone would have stepped up to the plate... and proved/shown me to be wrong....

So why are there no large commercial successes? I've been watching utube vids all day, some of which looked like they were from relatively large commercial operations (local tho). I'm slowly making my way through the forum, reading the members systems threads atm, so sorry if the answers have been given somewhere already, as I guess they have.

Very interesting conversation going on, i like it. Why i ask is i am about to graduate with a major in economic political and social development. I plan on doing my work in developing countries where fish is the major protein in the diet. There are aquaculture systems but i have not seen anything that involves aquaponics. I fell like the problem is that aquaponics seems to be pretty expensive to do on a large scale and some materials can be hard to find in remote places. I think there is potential in the concepts of aquaponics. I think doing large scale aquaculture then using the water from the fish tank to then water crops in soil. essential just making your fish tanks and reservoirs the same. I guess you could call it drain to waste. But this is kinda what i want to learn about. I figure if they are going to water their crops anyway, why not put a little fish poop in there. (This would most likely take place in sub-saharan africa next to a river where there is generally a shit ton of water.)

When i said commercial i kinda left it up for debate. What i should have said is are there any systems out there that can be comparable to a small family farm?

I found this website with some commercial size systems that you are able to buy.

http://aquaponics.com/page/commercial-systems

this website is also interesting. closed loop aquaponics.

http://www.norcalaquaponics.com/our-wor ... ic-systems

I agree, I believe the proposition of "going commercial" is how places charge for classes. No one is going to spend a ton of money on classes unless they believe that they can make money off of it. I certainly would not pay for classes to setup a system in my backyard. The reality is there is not a need to have a large commercial setup. Perhaps supplying local markets with unique produce and live fish, but I think that that denies the true power of Aquaponics to people. It is about people growing their own food, unchained from the corporate oligarchies that control the worlds food. I think the model "commercial system" is what Joel started when he decided to sell backyard systems that could be setup easily.

I think commercial aquaponics is viable in a world in which a growing number of busy city dwellers depends on food supply from outside and willing to pay for it. If, however, the present organization of society breaks down, there is a big chance that an increasing amount of people turn to aquaponics themselves. This would undermine commercial aquaponics and its success.

Return on investment is a hard figure. It should cover the earning back of the present investment in a designated time and provide for building up capital to replace the present assets of the enterprise including allowance for inflation.

"Decent salary" is more subjective and depends largely on the opinion of the receiver of that salary. One could be satisfied with 20-30K a year while the other considers 200K to be to little to be bothered.

Profit can be seen in hard figures, money counting or partly in another sort of profit. For example immaterial bonuses in the form of freedom of being your own boss, eating your own trusted vegetables and fish saving money at the same time, satisfaction of being productive in a natural environment and relatively self sustaining, and sure there are more benefits then I can think of now.

Farmers generally don't do classes to teach others for money how to grow things. I have the opinion that as soon a professional starts to sell himself as a instructor or teacher, there is enough reason to believe he/she was not really successful in that field and is now looking for other means of income to supplement the lack of success. Which then question the quality of the term professional this individual dressed himself up with.

A truly successful tutor is in my opinion of honorable age and willing to pass his knowledge on for free, or at the most at a cost covering fee. Not more.

I see some agreement in the definition I made before from a couple of you. I'm sure things could be added and things could be taken of to come to a truly useful definition of "commercial aquaponics"?

Commercial AP would have to be able to compete with commercial aquaculture and commercial agriculture, who can optimise stocking density and nutrients to a level not achievable in AP. While AP is without doubt, incredibly awesome, I doubt you can produce the same amount of produce as stand alone Hydro or aquaculture could in a comparably sized operation.

This is what Taylor Made have been successfully doing for a decade.... and I would say they are one of the few proven "commercial aquaponics" operations....

But here's where the argument begins to get mired by definitions... some would suggest that open ended drain/run to waste systems aren't true "aquaponic" systems...

Most current "models" aren't probably covering costs.... or are using any profit/cash low... to pay themselves a (decent or otherwise) salary....

They almost always make no mention, or provision for depreciation... and/or re-investment....

These discussions always turn into an argument about semantics.


But weren't you also talking to me recently about the fact that you thought a small system run by one person could not only pay for itself but also produce excess disposable income?


Perhaps because anyone doing it doesn't consider that they have to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter...?

Absolutely.... it can do so on a market garden/hobby farm... farmers market level.... but it's a hard grind for minimal income.... and limited by sheer number of hours that a single/partner can invest...

On any other scale... well it's just simply a matter of scale... and economies of scale... just like any existing commercial aquaculture or agriculture businesses...


Well that's the nub/hub of the matter.... and why I think the current approach/romance/models of "aquaponics" are totally flawed....


I disagree... there is absolutely no reason why you can't produce as much fish... and produce.... as in comparable sized aquaculture and hydroponic operations...

It just requires that both well researched/known methodologies... are optimised and practised as such....

And the combination is the management of the integration of the two separate, and needed to be separated components....

That's the difference, and distinction... between those that envisage "closed loop" aquaponics...

And those that envisage the integration of aquaculture.... with hydroponics..."integrated aquaculture"...

And a model of three separate, monitored, managed system loops....

And that's the elephant in the room with the current "flawed media" models.... you can't both encourage (as is a recent suggestion) biological processes.... that can't be controlled in a closed loop "eco-system"... while still maintaining the ability to control and manage issues and optimization strategies for the individual loop components.... because of the biologicals introduced....

How, for instance... do you treat pythium (a subject of much discussion today)..... in a single loop recirculating system.... particularly one that maintains biological filtration/processes.... as part of the plant production loop.... especially media beds....

You can't, for instance.... nuke/sterilise them as you can in hydroponics.... and there's no real research that offers any assurance that the introduction of other antagonistic biologies to pythium... wont affect the fish....

The UES system at Cobbity is by far the biggest... and most likely to be... commercial integrated "aquaponics" system in the world....

And is designed with monitored, managed multiple integrated loop processes.... but still has potential issues to overcome...

And the next 12 months could see the development of some seriously large scale "integrated aquaculuture" systems... particularly in the Middle East and China....

But the current backyard guru promoted "commercial aquaponics" romance... is based on no real knowledge.. no proven design criteria.... and usually no retail value of the aquaculture component....

Instead relying on "training" and other income streams... to allow the owners to draw a salary from the operation....

Current "commercial aquaponics"... is more a glossy sales brouchure.... with fluffy "green" feel good packaging... than any commercial farming reality...

No... what I said was that at best it could perhaps return a few hundred dollars a week.... and that it was, as I've always expressed... limited by the scale of how much time a single person could invest in an operation....

Therefore the actual "return" from such an operation... was also limited accordingly...




True... nobody has to prove it to me... or anyone else....

My argument has always been to those that are promoting it so hard... and preaching the viability as "gospel".... really have every thing to gain... by proving their case...

And from my past hydroponics experience.... I can see both from the scale... and pictured plant growth ... or generally lack of....in most "operations".... that they just aren't beyond the scale /profitabilityof a hobby farm....

And most probably can't/wont succeed if they try to expand....

See I think your whole arguments are totally skewed by your dislike of a few people within the industry. Just because you don't like their models of the way they do things (and I don't either) , doesn't mean that a small scale aquaponic system/business can't provide an income and be considered "commercial".
And yes, this may include a diverse revenue stream, most small businesses do...

Any sane person would have told me that my business wouldn't stand a chance, it had never been done before, there was no market. But hey, it pays wages and returns profits, it wasn't easy or simple and plenty of other people have tried and failed in doing similar things.

Whether a small scale aquaponic production system can be commercially successful is more about who is doing it rather than anything else.

Nope... my "objections" really have nothing to do with any of the individuals....

(I'm not as emotionally invested as some might like to paint me.... and frankly... I don't think the "industry" really exists much beyond what most of those "individuals" would like to portray it as anyway... )

My objections have always been based on both the limitations of scale (based on my previous experiences).... and the methodology(s) proposed....



I haven't argued that small scale aquaponic systems/businesses.... couldn't/can't provide an income.... or that they couldn't include diversified revenue streams....

I've just argued that scale... and time availability.... limits the income potential....

And opposed the proferred "suggestion"... that the scale/design/model of "aquaponic farm" being touted through training modules.... is, or can be successful/profitable... on it's own... without the other revenue streams.... like training etc... included...

The reality, from what I see... is that most of those doing so.... are probably generating as much. or more... personal income from the training ... than they are from the "farm"...


That's probably very true... (and the definitions of "successful" are as you say sometimes a matter of semantics)

But, even so.... the arguments about scale/time limitations... are still valid...

As are IMO.... questions as to design aspects.... and methodologies...