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PostPosted: Mar 17th, '13, 22:18 

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Hello Everyone !
My name is Fredrik Lübbing, and I live in Sweden. I am a physicist, having been working in the area of Energy Medicine, Bio-Physics and Mother Earth Health for over 15 years. I am glad I found this forum !
I am trying to set up a small research facility of a Aquaponics system, preferrably in cooperation with some University and the Swedish Farmers Association (LRF), hopefully in the near future.
During the years, I have come across knowledge about so called Active Water and Non-Active Water, where the active one is of great benefits for humans, animals and plants. Swedish test confirmed a harvest yield difference in the magnitude of 30 percent ! when using activated water. (This water was activated by a specific mechanical whirler.)
Then I learned from some Russian colleguas, that in Russia, they scientifically classify water in 32 (!) different types, physically, even though it is the same "chemical" substance, ranging form "Dead Water" up to "Living Water"....(0-32).

Questions :
1. Do anyone of you have similar knowledge/experience, and would like to share it ?
2. Are there any other Swedish people present here ?

Kind regards, Fredrik, M. Sc.


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PostPosted: Mar 17th, '13, 23:16 
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Welcome Fredrik!

The whirler business sounds like mumbo-jumbo.


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PostPosted: Mar 18th, '13, 00:16 
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Hi F55
There is a few Swedes on the forum here is one viewtopic.php?f=45&t=14923#p366667
I posted a link to a swedish pioner in scandinavian AP in his thread

cheers


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PostPosted: Mar 18th, '13, 13:09 
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I doubt there are many states for plain H2O, however with minor impurities there may be more. I would check out redox and its impacts on fish and plants. You will need an ORP meter.
Agitation of the water stimulating a stream, or cavitation of the water, may be what you are talking about.


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PostPosted: Mar 18th, '13, 14:12 
As a physicist.. could you please explain how the chemical, or physical properties of water.... are/can be changed, or enhanced... by a "mechanical whirler"...


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PostPosted: Mar 18th, '13, 14:21 
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I suspect something got lost in the translation program Rupert. :)
Water also does not necessarily mean straight H2O; turn on your tap and have a glass of 'water'.


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PostPosted: Mar 18th, '13, 14:51 
Nah.... H20 is water... water, with additives... is H20, with additives... :lol:


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PostPosted: Mar 18th, '13, 15:45 

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:thumbright: Hi, I'm Nina from Los Angeles / San Francisco, California. Glad to be on board.

Here to learn as much as I possibly can.

Thank you.


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PostPosted: Mar 18th, '13, 16:37 
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So is beer. :lol:

Perhaps we could talk to the water corp and change their definition of what they supply to my place? Over here they regulate (sort of) what goes into food and what it contains; why is that not on my water bill? :drunken:


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PostPosted: Mar 19th, '13, 02:00 
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I think I know what he means by "activated" water and agree that it's bogus. There are plenty of sites hawking products for this kind of thing, all pretty transparent snake oil schemes.


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PostPosted: Mar 19th, '13, 07:14 

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@RupertofOz :
As it has been explained to me, it goes like this :
In water, the H2O molecules sometimes forms rings and cluster of rings, due to weak Hydrogen bonding between the slightly electrically charged molecules (statically polarity). When agitating the water, it seems that the number of this rings and cluster grow. The Water Molecules forms clusters of Hexagonal and Pentagonal patterns. It is known (Principles of Biochemistry, Lenninger et al) that harmful bacteria and viruses grows in a hexagonal pattern (on the molecular level). In structured water, the "corners" of the hexagonal water, there are Oxygen atoms (extreme radicals), meaning that the fungus can not grow. They are litteraliy avoiding the Oxygen atom.
It also seems that these cluster have some impact on the positive metabolism of humans, animals and plants, though its not yet scientfically understod why (a theory is lacking..), but its proven statistically by measuring seed growt; the less presence of certain bacteria; and by general "health" of the the specie.
In Russia, there is a Water and Environmental Research Center (Moscow) headed by a prof. Yuri Rachmanin, who is the water specialist and contracted by the UN when it comes to water research. He has in numerous trials proved the above....
But, as stated, we dont know exactly why, yet, which makes this an interesting area of hypothesises...
Regards Fredrik


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PostPosted: Mar 19th, '13, 08:15 
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Even if you could get pure water (very difficult) and hold it somewhere where it would not interact with something else (almost impossible) I doubt it would form stable molecular patterns (unless it was ice).
Water molecules can gain and lose hydrogen molecules or you can make it unstable by various means however because it is unstable it will react very rapidly to restabilise itself, either as water or in combination with other molecules.


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PostPosted: Mar 19th, '13, 08:21 
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Actually, that rings a faint bell. I'll have to see if I can track it down but the gist was that in changing state (solid, liquid, gas) they had thought the structures changed at each of the transition temps, but they found some of the solid-type structures survived up to near boiling point. That's about all I recall but I do remember the 5 and 6 ring structures being mentioned.

The researchers were most puzzled as to how it could be - I don't recall them attributing properties to the structures though.


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PostPosted: Mar 19th, '13, 08:31 
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From physorg...
As recent models predicted, they saw molecules 0.28 and 0.45 nanometers apart. These measurements confirm the current commonly accepted model, which describes liquid water as a group of water molecules held together in tetrahedral shapes, with the molecule at the center of the tetrahedron separated from four others at the shorter distance and each of these four molecules separated from one another at the longer distance. Yet the researchers saw some molecules at a third distance as well: 0.34 nanometers. The existence of this third separation length, though not included in the current model, was first seen in 1938. Additional experiments in the 1960s and 1970s first confirmed, but later rejected, that this length exists, concluding that its detection was due to shortcomings in the analysis. As a result, models including this intermediate distance fell out of favor—until now.
...

Fully understanding the structure of water is a surprisingly difficult task. In water's solid form, ice, the molecules are known to form a tight tetrahedral lattice. The current model holds that liquid water should be similar to ice but less structured since heat creates disorder and breaks bonds. In liquid water, then, the tetrahedral structures would loosen their grip, breaking apart as the temperature rises, but still inclined to remain as tetrahedral as possible. This new research adds a kink in this theory, requiring some sort of secondary structure. The greater density of liquid water implies that the molecules are more closely packed than the simple tetrahedra seen in ice. These data help explain how that can happen.

From London South Bank University:
As liquid water is so common-place in our everyday lives, it is often regarded as a ‘typical’ liquid. In reality, water is most atypical as a liquid, behaving as a quite different material at low temperatures to that when it is hot.

It has often been stated (for example, [127]) that life depends on these anomalous properties of water. In particular, the high cohesion between molecules gives it a high freezing and melting point, such that we and our planet are bathed in liquid water.

The large heat capacity, high thermal conductivity and high water content in organisms contribute to thermal regulation and prevent local temperature fluctuations, thus allowing us to more easily control our body temperature. The high latent heat of evaporation gives resistance to dehydration and considerable evaporative cooling.

Water is an excellent solvent due to its polarity, high dielectric constant and small size, particularly for polar and ionic compounds and salts.b It has unique hydration properties towards biological macromolecules (particularly proteins and nucleic acids) that determine their three-dimensional structures, and hence their functions, in solution. This hydration forms gels that can reversibly undergo the gel-sol phase transitions that underlie many cellular mechanisms [351]. Water ionizes and allows easy proton exchange between molecules, so contributing to the richness of the ionic interactions in biology.

The above site has a list of :
Water phase anomalies
Water density anomalies
Water material anomalies
Water thermodynamic anomalies
Water physical anomalies

Not hard to see the OP might not be talking through his proverbial - there is a LOT we don't yet understand about water.


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PostPosted: Mar 19th, '13, 08:36 
It's all quite simple really....

The most stable geometries arise from a fusion of tetrameric (cuboid) or pentameric rings...

Beyond a certainly level of bonding....clusters. form.. the most stable geometries can be thought of as arising from either the cuboid or the fused pentamers or a combination thereof....

Which represent a transition from cyclic (ring)... to three-dimensional geometries... cuboid/pentameter clusters...

But there's apparantly... a large number of alternative three-dimensional structures... such as chair, boat, and cage....

Fascinating.... http://home.iitk.ac.in/~nsath/papers/jp013141b.pdf


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