Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I hear ya Steve.. yep, but might go some way to solving the problem...

in that at least then the supply/use of "sniffable" petrol becomes a matter of deliberate action that can be directly "blamed" on individuals or groups and as such those individuals or groups can be held accountable...

And again I say hold them accountable for potential murder, at the very least for greviously bodily harm and child abuse.... no "ifs" thens or "buts"...

no "it was somebody else fault".... zero tolerance

Edited :

Oh and by the way ... welcome back Steve, hope you had a great time

yep. I'm a bit behind in this thread, but i assume that people are getting let off light becasue they were "high" so its not your fault?

My view is that although the crime may not have been commited with "free will or full knowledge" becasue they were high, the act of GETTING high WAS, along with the KNOWLEDGE that once high they would be likely to commit such acts, so yeh, whack 'em in the dungeon.

Wasn't going to raise it but....

In my time up the top end... nearly four years... the greatest suppliers of petrol, alcohol, cigarettes and other drugs to the local aboriginals in almost every area I was in ....

was some bloody grubby white man... usually laughing to himself or to whoever was around him.... that they're "only black bastards".....

Fair call ROZ, I have seen the same thing in the Kimberly.(top of W.A.)
But it is a supply demand thing IMHO If there is demand there is supply.
Even worse is the fact other aboriginals were doing the same thing to their own.

Sadly true also...



If there is no supply... would there be a demand????


I suspect that the lowest grubs will supply regardless and create a demand if allowed....

i.e look at the demand in city areas for "ice".... never was a demand until it was created by a supply... potential market may have been created by exposure to media and perhaps by a small number of travellers overseas experiences... but there was no real supply and no real demand...

now it's endemic in Sydney and even semi rural areas... same thing with "ecstacy" a few years back...

like I say pity we just can't shoot the bastards....

but then it's hard to argue suppression of some drugs while we market and allow "legal" categories like alcohol and cigarettes eh??

the ultimate hippocracy and the ultimate reason for failure of any anti drug campaign IMHO

so does the supply create a demand or does the demand create a supply?

chicken or the egg Steve, it may all come down to marketing!

ROZ again a fair call.

I think it may come down to what the younger society thinks is Cool.
When I started work (17yo) in a sml country town, drinking was the thing, followed closely by pot ( because it was cool)
I'm happy to say I'm no longer a pot head (lost my apprenticeship because of it, Imagine going to work and finding an f250 gearbox stripped down and not knowing why) but still drink like a fish.(what a funny saying, Do fish drink?)
Sadly certain people will always try to profit off the down fall of others, if it's tobacco or alcohol or even coffee/tea it's alright thats legal and taxed.

At the end of the day you can not save people from themselves, alot of us have to learn the hard way and most of us get through it, the ones that don't are shunned by society for being freaks or if they are lucky, are helped (by people with big hearts ) to get over the addiction.

LOL ... kinda makes you wonder what the hell we're still doing in Iraq then eh?? LOL... (just to go even further off topic)

It is in discussions such as this, that no matter what your political leanings, it is evident that this world is bigger than the sum of humanity and that someone was behind it's creation. I choose to believe that there is a God behind it all, one who has given us a free will. That free will has brought society and humanity to where we are. We have been given stewardship of an amazing planet with intricate systems to ensure its longevity in spite of the errors of man.

As stewards of this planet we must do all that is in our power to enjoy it while at the same time protecting it. We must teach our our offspring to do the same. I will not use this forum to promote my faith other than to say that God is in control but we sure do keep him busy. If you want to get into faith issues, PM me and we can chat. I make no apologies for my beliefs.

One of the great things about our western culture and the freedoms we enjoy is that there are fringe groups and and mainstream groups. During the industrial revolution, people lived in squalor and in poor working conditions. Then along came what at that time were the fringe groups called Unions. They made changes so that our industrial progress could co-habitate with individual rights. What we have in the US is an imperfect result of the checks and balances achieved through compromise of liberal and concervative politics.

I have lived much of my life in third-world countries where these checks and balances do not exist because society has not had to go through the process of progress. Progress is achieved in leaps and bounds and there is no idea of the effort needed to research and arrive at conclusions. Therefore enterprising people of wealth acquire technology from the modern world and suddenly make it a part of the society here. As a result. you have industry with no regard for the people who produce. You have exploitation of natural resources with no regard for replenishment, you have production with no regard for the environment.

In the western world it is normal to sit back and criticize the far left, or the far right. But it is those extremes which cause us to arrive at a compromise that we can all live with however uncomfortable we may be with the outcome. We can speak and we can be activists. Many other societies have voiceless masses that do not reap any of the benefits of progress. But to blame American society or other developed countries for for the ills of the world is right and wrong. I will speak only for America.

Our wealth has fed more people than most other nations combined. We have pioneered massive amounts of technology that have improved the standard of living for millions the world over. Our research in medicine has wiped out and controlled illnesses that killed thousands prior to the inventions of vaccines and procedures. Our private sector gives tens of billions of $$$ to relieve the suffering of the people of the world.

Those of us who have had the fortune to have been born in the developed west need to be careful to recognize our contributions to the world's progress while at the same time challenging the system. We are all citizens placed in a perfect world, surrounded by imperfect people. We are stewards of the place we live. I thank God that I am in the position to help and not in the position where I beg for other people to help me.

Well put, DT. When I touched off the match in this powder keg, (around page 5, just before the weekend), I was pushing back against what I view as dangerous overzealousness on the environmentalist side.

I have been, and remain a staunch conservationalist, but get tired of people pointing their fingers at me as the cause of all the worlds problems. It is in reaction to this I say (with tounge firmly in cheek), things like, "Earth first! - we'll stripmine the other planets later", or "Nuke the Gay Whales".

When I did my original tirade, I did not have the time to look up and/or verify all my information. I recieved flack for that from several, but my information was more accurate than much of the opposing information. As Steve said, the new refrigerants are a lousy substitute. They don't work as well, and while helping on one side, they hurt 100X more on the other. I agree that HC refrigerant would be far better.

The dumbing down of society is a major concern for me. This is one of the reasons that several of my children have been homeschooled. My wife taught highschool for 3 years, and found that the biggest impediment to progress in schools was the same organizations that advocate spending more on education. If I am ever in doubt on what is best for "the children", all I need to do is see where the teachers' union stands on the issue, and take the opposite side. Ten out of nine times, (about the same percentage of public school kids who have trouble with fractions ), I find that this practice puts me on the side of the issue that is in harmony with my beliefs.

I would not be on this forum if it weren't for my desire to be a good steward of the things that I have been blessed with in life.

(Stepping back off soapbox, and looking at the aquaponics side of the site again)

Thank you, DT.

Your welcome!

Mine do......where else would all of that water go if they're not drinking it?

regarding drugs, it seems to me a far better approach is to give up trying to criminalise drugs, instead make them available like alcohol and tobacco are available, and control their use with similar restrictions (ice is only to be used at home or in licenced clubs). The real problem is a lack of direction for people, a lack of self respect, and a lack of education. The war on drugs has been a failure and is probably doing more damage than good.

greenedo: Why do you think it is reasonable to make great claims about what people should do when you don't understand the issues yourself? Isn't that like walking into a nuclear power plant and turning all the knobs around because you don't want so much chlorine in your tap water...

The first step should always be to understand the issues.

Dt, please don't take personal offense at my comments here, I'm trying to encourage thought and debate, not attack you.. I enjoyed reading through what you have to say..

And in return for the food, increased those third world coutries debt to a stage where they can't afford to pay the interest, so they are permanently indebted. While bio technology companies force the disadvantaged locals to use GM crops with terminator genes in them. So in areas where they used to reuse their own seed each year they are now forced to buy seed each year from these companies.

That same wealth has also bought about an enormous amount of suffering, more destructive fire power than the world has ever seen before, more polution, and an ever increasing gap between rich and poor.

Generally there is always a flip side to this. Firstly, why is it that the western world always considers it's doing others a favour by pushing their way of life onto them.. In Australia, the aboriginals lived an idilic sustainable lifestyle, and had done for tens of thousands of years (as with many native cultures around the world). Yet we westerners in all of our wisdom, decide that they are poor unfortunates who should have our civilized ways pushed onto them... For every technology that improves standard of living, there are 10 technologies that do no good for humanity whatsoever.

Another area I've read a fair amount of debate about.. Are medical companies supressing real cures? From a commercial standpoint, if you're a pharmaceutical producer and you invent a cure for some horrible disease, and also invent something that will keep the disease under control with continual usage, which are you going to release.. Cureing illness is not for the good of the company, controlling illness is.. However this is purely conjecture.



Hang on..... I've been covering this exact point already... Nestle, convincing third world mothers that they should use formulae rather than breast feed, when their water supplies are unclean and this causes death and illness to infants. Bio tech companies with terminator genes and or patents over GM crops, in Iraq, western companies are trying to control wheat production, sending in GM wheat to the place where wheat originated from, where they have grown it for centuries, carefully selectively breeding the strongest strains.. So now Iraq farmers will no longer be able to collect their own seed, they will have to buy it each year...

Private sectors rarely, if ever give away money just to help others, normally it is in the form of goods and services with strings attached. It's opening up new markets for their companies.

Western commercial society is a double edged sword the way I see it, it has the means and the ability to do so much, but we are so wrapped up in $$, that the goodwill usually falls short. Smart technnologies do not get off the ground if there is no money to be made from them. Our priminister won't spend money on alternative energy technologies, because there's more money in coal. Who is going to spend time' effort and money telling people that there's better ways of growing food, using small localized organic farms that can be almost totally self sufficient, no one, because there's no money to be made in telling that... But telling people the only way is to have larger farms on more marginal land? Now there's money in that, you'll need tons of fertilizers, seed, sprays, and a tractor that costs more than your average house... Because there's money in it, someone is more than willing to tell you how to go about it, their way...

As a species, as with most species, we fear what we don't know or understand, and take comfort from the things that we are familiar with. We can only comprehend things through our own interpretation, and interpretation of a fact isn't necessarily the fact.. Companies spend billions of dollars on illusion, misdirection and misconception, how to best take advantage of people, while convincing them you're doing the right thing...

Man, I'd better leave it at that, I didn't even get to education or drugs...

There's my little rant, and please don't take offense..

Greenedo I wasn't giving you flack, just putting my opinions accross, and if you think your statements are more accurate, then please say so, and point out where and why.... Debate is good...