MrPisky's Hoop House IBC System

MrPisky

scotty435 wrote:

Constant Flow/Flood, you get less fluctuation in water levels so you don't have to grow a bigger sump tank every time you want to expand your system or worry about all the siphons being in sync (which means you don't have to top up the sump as often). You also don't have to mess with siphons and you can use a smaller pump. The pump is always on so you don't have to worry about it not starting up like you would if you had it on a timer.

Figure 30 to 40 percent of the volume in the growbeds will be water when they are flooded. Add to this the volume in the pipes and you can figure the fluctuations in the IBC sumps based on the number of growbeds each supplies. With Flood and Drain most of this volume will wind up in the Sump if you have the power go out - with CF most of this will stay in the growbeds and pipes if the power goes off.

Some feel that Flood and Drain gives them better aeration - I'm not sure what's happening in these cases but I haven't had this issue running CF. Take a look at the BYAP Trial System thread for a comparison.

http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8621&hilit=byap%20trials

Timed Flood and Drain might use slightly less power even though it has a bigger pump usually.

Thanks Scotty, just finished reading that thread....amazing read, very informative!! It seems like CF is the way to ramp up a new system for sure, but then perhaps switch to timed F&D after it matures. I think the design I have right now will allow me to go either way, but I'm not sure how to achieve the drain on a F/D system?? Does it just require a small hole in the base of the standpipe?

MrPisky

ccBear wrote:

All so give it the vinegar test just to be sure.

MrPisky

BullwinkleII wrote:

I've been awake for 26 hours, so I might be talking nonsense

LOL...you sound like ME! My wife now HATES the word Sketchup... :lol:

BullwinkleII

My siphon based growbed can be swapped between flood and drain, timed flood and drain, or constant flood via a small hole in the base of the standpipe. I cut an inch long section of the same pipe the standpipe is made from, and then cut that length ways so it clips over the hole. It leaks a tiny bit (perhaps a litre per day), but that doesn't matter as it's just leaking into the sump. Once the bio-gunk grows, and if it hasn't been disturbed for a while, the leak stops anyway.

MrPisky

chainsaw wrote:

[quote="MrPisky]

I found the tophat grommets, but not available in 3". Were you talking about a different application?[/quote]

Max size for TopHats I have found is 1". Really dont need larger than that for a GB drain as you have several draining at the same time. Here is one of my older systems which has 3/4" fittings draining into 90mm pipe and a external syphon on the end. So even that works fine which has a 1 1/4" standpipe for the syphon.

Attachment:

More GBs.JPG

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[/quote]

Thanks Chainsaw, I'll keep these in mind.

MrPisky

MikeyLIkesIt wrote:

MrPisky wrote:

...It's about a 10 foot elevation drop from the house foundation to the hoop house site about 30 ft away.

Perhaps you've already thought about it, MrPiskey, but the lay of your setup, as far as distance from the house and elevation, is almost identical to mine. My wife told me she would gladly give up a grow bed in order to make room for a utility sink and a small work table. It was good advice. When harvesting veggies and/or fish the table and sink really come in handy... It gives us a little more storage space, cuts down the number of trips up and down the hill, and everything is clean before it goes into the house.

Enjoying the thread,
Mikey

Hey, great idea Mikey! MrPisky likes it TOO and I be MrsPisky will as well! (especially the part about not cleaning fish in the house...

)

MrPisky

BullwinkleII wrote:

My siphon based growbed can be swapped between flood and drain, timed flood and drain, or constant flood via a small hole in the base of the standpipe. I cut an inch long section of the same pipe the standpipe is made from, and then cut that length ways so it clips over the hole. It leaks a tiny bit (perhaps a litre per day), but that doesn't matter as it's just leaking into the sump. Once the bio-gunk grows, and if it hasn't been disturbed for a while, the leak stops anyway.

Just to clarify my thinking...please correct me where I have it wrong.

1. Siphons: These are sort of an un-timed F&D, right? They generally drain faster than the pump can fill, correct? (I apologize for not having researched or done the math on this yet.) I'm familiar with Travis Hughey's Barrel-ponics setup where he used a toilet flush valve that was activated by a bottle slowly filling/draining from a small siphon tube from an overhead tank.

2. Timed F&D: This is accomplished by hooking the pump to a timer, but the drain cycle is accomplished by placing a small hole in the stand pipe and not using a siphon bell over it, correct?

3. Constant Flood: The CF system seems simple enough...just have stand pipes open so the beds never fill past the top of the stand pipes.

Does that about cover it? Or are there other variants I've missed?

MrPisky

RupertofOZ wrote:

scotty435 wrote:

The pump is always on so you don't have to worry about it not starting up like you would if you had it on a timer.

This gets trotted out quite often... but I've only had about two occurances in 7+ years where the pump hasn't started when the timer turned on... and both were due to blown pump capacitors... (replaced, and still going)...

Likewise I hear about timers failing etc.... but if you search through the history of the forum(s)... you wont find very many posts about either occurance... other than perhaps by siphon lovers... who've nearly all.. always run siphons... :lol:

I've actually read probably just as many posts about pumps not starting.. when they've been turning off.. then back on... in siphoned systems.. including those of a most avid siphonator.... :lol:

(Actually had me wondering if the u-beaut pumps he advocates... were actually that u-beaut... after all... :lol:

)

I wonder if there are any factual infos regarding pump motor life? I've seen opinions that go both ways, some saying motors have longer life when running constantly versus stop/start cycles and others that say it makes no difference. :dontknow:

DrLuke

MrPisky wrote:

BullwinkleII wrote:

My siphon based growbed can be swapped between flood and drain, timed flood and drain, or constant flood via a small hole in the base of the standpipe. I cut an inch long section of the same pipe the standpipe is made from, and then cut that length ways so it clips over the hole. It leaks a tiny bit (perhaps a litre per day), but that doesn't matter as it's just leaking into the sump. Once the bio-gunk grows, and if it hasn't been disturbed for a while, the leak stops anyway.

Just to clarify my thinking...please correct me where I have it wrong.

1. Siphons: These are sort of an un-timed F&D, right? They generally drain faster than the pump can fill, correct? (I apologize for not having researched or done the math on this yet.) I'm familiar with Travis Hughey's Barrel-ponics setup where he used a toilet flush valve that was activated by a bottle slowly filling/draining from a small siphon tube from an overhead tank.

2. Timed F&D: This is accomplished by hooking the pump to a timer, but the drain cycle is accomplished by placing a small hole in the stand pipe and not using a siphon bell over it, correct?

3. Constant Flood: The CF system seems simple enough...just have stand pipes open so the beds never fill past the top of the stand pipes.

Does that about cover it? Or are there other variants I've missed?

You got it

BullwinkleII

MrPisky wrote:

BullwinkleII wrote:

My siphon based growbed can be swapped between flood and drain, timed flood and drain, or constant flood via a small hole in the base of the standpipe. I cut an inch long section of the same pipe the standpipe is made from, and then cut that length ways so it clips over the hole. It leaks a tiny bit (perhaps a litre per day), but that doesn't matter as it's just leaking into the sump. Once the bio-gunk grows, and if it hasn't been disturbed for a while, the leak stops anyway.

Just to clarify my thinking...please correct me where I have it wrong.

1. Siphons: These are sort of an un-timed F&D, right? They generally drain faster than the pump can fill, correct? (I apologize for not having researched or done the math on this yet.) I'm familiar with Travis Hughey's Barrel-ponics setup where he used a toilet flush valve that was activated by a bottle slowly filling/draining from a small siphon tube from an overhead tank.

2. Timed F&D: This is accomplished by hooking the pump to a timer, but the drain cycle is accomplished by placing a small hole in the stand pipe and not using a siphon bell over it, correct?

3. Constant Flood: The CF system seems simple enough...just have stand pipes open so the beds never fill past the top of the stand pipes.

Does that about cover it? Or are there other variants I've missed?

yeah that's it.

There are a variations on the siphon. Bell siphons and loop siphons spring to mind. There is also a a floating inlet on a flexible hose that runs out of travel when the upper water level is reached. Then it fills with water and sinks to a minimum level, where it starts again.

Different people will tell you different things about the various ways to flood and drain, but given the number of different approaches that some very clever and knowledgeable people employ, and the fact that the debate hasn't settled out after these past years, I'm guessing they are all good.

I think most people favour the method they got to work first.

I run a loop siphon, a bell siphon, and a constant flood. I've also used timers. I cant see any reason to avoid any method. They all work well.

I dont know about Travis' method as I've never tried it. But by all acounts, Travis is one of those very clever and knowledgeable people, so no doubt that method is good as well.

I dont hear much about that method though, so it might be old tech. If you stick to the methods that use a standpipe, they are very easy to change between the three. I'm not sure if Travis' method is compatible with the others.

The BYAP shop sells timed flood and drain systems, so I'm guessing they found that method to be most reliable. After all they have to deal with after sales stuff so they probably know. .

But I love the bell siphon as much for the sound as anything so I'd go with that

And they are just such cool tech

My version of a glass bell siphon so I could see what was going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 0Omet7IPSY

Geek2Nurse

Bell siphons are 'way too much fun for me to not have them.

My (very new and as yet fishless and unfinished) system is CHIFT-PIST with Affnan-style bell siphons to make the grow beds flood and drain. I couldn't find the PVC 1" to 2" adaptors to make the wider top that makes Affnan-style bell siphons so trouble-free, so I used a heat gun and a metal funnel to flare the ends of my PVC standpipes, and it worked great! Cheaper, too, plus the bonus fun of melting stuff. (Deep down inside, I'm really still twelve years old.)

I used TCLynx's tip of putting 1.25" Uniseals in my grow bed drains. A 1" PVC connector will fit just right into that size Uniseal, and then your 1" standpipe is easy to remove and replace. That makes it a breeze to make adjustments to the depth of the flood, or to drain the bed to work on something, or to convert it to CF. TCL saved me a LOT of future work with that one, and also made it super simple to adjust the amount of water in my system as I add new components.

My build is going slowly because I've been working more than full time lately, so as I gradually build and add grow beds I just have to make sure there's no more water in the system than the total available sump volume. That's easy enough to do, with my handy-dandy TCL-inspired removable standpipes: First I pull the bells and let the beds fill completely, adding water to the sump as needed to keep the pump from running dry. Then I turn off the pump and pull each standpipe in turn, letting the bed drain completely, making sure the sump won't overflow when they're all completely drained. (So far I've got plenty of sump space, but I have another tank yet to bury and plumb in when it starts getting tight.) So I can sleep knowing that nothing's going to overflow and my pump's not going to run dry.

MrPisky

BullwinkleII wrote:

My siphon based growbed can be swapped between flood and drain, timed flood and drain, or constant flood via a small hole in the base of the standpipe. I cut an inch long section of the same pipe the standpipe is made from, and then cut that length ways so it clips over the hole. It leaks a tiny bit (perhaps a litre per day), but that doesn't matter as it's just leaking into the sump. Once the bio-gunk grows, and if it hasn't been disturbed for a while, the leak stops anyway.

After reading the BYAP trial thread, I'm now of the mind that I may want to have a standpipe in each GB, rather than having one big mega-siphon at the end of a whole row. That way I could very easily adjust each GB independently to CF or F&D/Siphon on demand. That would also reduce the amount of tank perforations needed by not having to run a connection pipe sideways through all the GB's. As currently designed, the GBs at the ends of each line will need only one drain perforation/grommet, but all GB's in the middle of a line will require two perfs/grommets. I would only have to make 23 perfs of smaller size (smaller grommets cost less) as opposed to having to do 53 perfs as designed. Those 3" Uniseals are $6-$7 each. Hmmm.... :think:

(ahhh...and I wouldn't have to spend HOURS cutting weep holes in 90' of drain pipe either!!)

BullwinkleII

My IBC has a tap in the bottom half with a standard thread, and a cap within a cap on the top half also with a standard thread.

You might be able to connect every thing through existing holes.

MrPisky

chainsaw wrote:

I am not a great lover of syphons. I found not so problamatic (for some they are) but does not keep the FT water as clear, syphon flow is too great and sucks all the crap back out of the GBs. I use CF on one system and TF&D on the other. I dont use a timer as I have sump pumps with float switch. Its almost idiot proof (has to be for me) when sump is full, pump is on, when its empty pump is off and may take 10 mins before sump is full again.

OK MrPisky, found some photos of THGs you may find useful.

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Poly connector and TopHat Grommet

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THG fitted, then repeat same on RHS. So one end goes into GB and other into the pipework.

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DSCN0604.JPG

Here is a 1" fitted to a 90mm drain.

Thanks, I had forgotten about using a submersible sump pump w/float switch. Will have to consider that instead of the pool-type pumps I have on the drawing now. Also, thanks for THG pics...very useful way to tap into PVC!

MrPisky

DrLuke wrote:

MrPisky wrote:

BullwinkleII wrote:

My siphon based growbed can be swapped between flood and drain, timed flood and drain, or constant flood via a small hole in the base of the standpipe. I cut an inch long section of the same pipe the standpipe is made from, and then cut that length ways so it clips over the hole. It leaks a tiny bit (perhaps a litre per day), but that doesn't matter as it's just leaking into the sump. Once the bio-gunk grows, and if it hasn't been disturbed for a while, the leak stops anyway.

Just to clarify my thinking...please correct me where I have it wrong.

1. Siphons: These are sort of an un-timed F&D, right? They generally drain faster than the pump can fill, correct? (I apologize for not having researched or done the math on this yet.) I'm familiar with Travis Hughey's Barrel-ponics setup where he used a toilet flush valve that was activated by a bottle slowly filling/draining from a small siphon tube from an overhead tank.

2. Timed F&D: This is accomplished by hooking the pump to a timer, but the drain cycle is accomplished by placing a small hole in the stand pipe and not using a siphon bell over it, correct?

3. Constant Flood: The CF system seems simple enough...just have stand pipes open so the beds never fill past the top of the stand pipes.

Does that about cover it? Or are there other variants I've missed?

You got it

Ok, great! Thanks for confirming my understanding here. Was getting a little confused after seeing so many variants.

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MrPisky's Hoop House IBC System

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