Jail in north America

RupertofOZ

SuperVeg wrote:

it makes sense to defend yourself by any means necessary against any threat. Having said that the amount of force employed should still be appropriate to the level of threat (as deemed by the person being threatened and community standards.)

So.... it's entirely valid for Iran to produce a nuclear weapon.. in response to a possible threat from Isreali nuclear weapons.... :wink:

SuperVeg

Ronmaggi

helomech wrote:

SuperVeg wrote:

Texas certainly has good laws when it comes to personal freedom. I think Texas would be my choice if I was ever going to move to the US. Unfortunately the Federal Government is successfully gaining more power over the states as time goes on (with a few notable exceptions).

In Texas if you shot a cop because he was entering your home without permission and notifying you (and you thought he was a burglar) does it get much more complicated ?

If that happened over here I don't think you would have a chance of getting dealt with fairly.

(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is
justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the
peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts
to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search;
and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably
believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself
against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use
of greater force than necessary.

You can even set booby traps.

§ 9.44. USE OF DEVICE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. The
justification afforded by Sections 9.41 and 9.43 applies to the use
of a device to protect land or tangible, movable property if:
(1) the device is not designed to cause, or known by
the actor to create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious
bodily injury; and
(2) use of the device is reasonable under all the
circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be when he
installs the device.

It did not work out so well for David Koresh. I would say a greater than nessasary force was used there...

SuperVeg

Of course there will always be cases when people go well beyond what is necessary to defend themselves or their property, and in these cases those people should be dealt with accordingly.
Shooting someone in the back 10 times as they were walking away from stealing your junkmail is a very different case to killing someone in your house in the middle of the night after they just broke in through a window...

helomech

Quote:

="Ronmaggi]It did not work out so well for David Koresh. I would say a greater than nessasary force was used there...

That was a travisty. Everyone from Janet reno down should still be in prison over that one. And anyone that believes the government was right, needs to do some research. I am not defending Koresh, but our government screwed up big time.

Ronmaggi

You should be defending him, the reason for the raid was his guns.

helomech

Ronmaggi wrote:

You should be defending him, the reason for the raid was his guns.

I defend parts of what he did,IMO he had every right to the guns he had. The federal government went way out of their legal bounds. And all of them should have been tried for the murder of all those kids. I don't believe the reason for the raid was his guns, that was just their excuse. They wanted him taken down, and they searched for any reason they could come up with. If all they wanted was his guns, they could have taken them the day before it started when they where on his range shooting with him. It really had nothing to do with guns.

Ronmaggi

Than you should be defending him because it is his constitutional right to practice any religion, even if it is one that sets up yourself as a prophet.

helomech

Ronmaggi wrote:

Than you should be defending him because it is his constitutional right to practice any religion, even if it is one that sets up yourself as a prophet.

I defend that too, just don't know much about the rumors with the kids. I believe that is why they got raided. Hard to remember all the information, it has been a long time.

Ronmaggi

The ATF is not child protective services... And they killed all the children anyway.

SolTun

Well
It didn't woork out for a one "armed" guy in a weelchair either.
He was shot in the head in his home by a cop.
For not rising a hand, he didn't have, and holding a pen in the one, he raised.
I'm rather disscusded with that.
You need guns to protect your selfe from a police inside your home!
Grate laws don't you think SV ?
And if you go back to post #1 you see that you can be arested and jailed (not prisond) indef really cool.

cheers

PS I would be disscused with this hapening anywhere in the world.

Ronmaggi

It happens everywhere in the world. When someone is jailed indefinitely here, it is considered a breach in the constitution. The Orwellian named patriot act pretends that it is a loophole, but it is still a breach none the less. Unfortunately, when people have a power, they very rarely relinquish it.

SuperVeg

Very true.
Govt's use war to implement such terrible things as the patriot act, over here we had (to a lesser extent) anti-terrorism laws that greatly increased the power of police.
Throughout history wars are used as an excuse to increase power and reduce freedom.

Ronmaggi

Sadly, politics these days are about picking which personal freedoms you don't mind losing.

RupertofOZ

So when picking what politicians you vote for... you should be very mindful of what personal freedoms you might be likely to lose...

Sadly... especially these days... we seem to be prepared to accept that we have to accept the lose of personal freedoms... rights and conditions.... and blindly vote based on old hat ideologies....

Rather than voting for candidates that advocte protection of freedoms.. rights and conditions... and marching down the street.. to tell politicians that we're not prepared to see our rights, conditions... and freedoms trampled upon....

But, I guess... that's because we're a bunch of comfortable, aging, selfish, self centred, self righteous, visionless bastards...

More interested in what happened in the gambling pit of the daily share market... what suburb we live in... and the value of our houses are....

Than concepts, and vision... of what future we might be leaving our children...

Make no mistake about it... we do get the politicians we deserve... ask for, and demand....

The current state of the nation... is TOTALLY... OUR FAULT....

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Jail in north America

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