Jail in north America

Curly

SolTun wrote:

I just can't see how the actions of the police, on this matter, can be justified.
(and unlike you, I'm not "a liberal")
It carries the signatur, of a violent and totalitarian police state IMO.

cheers

Agreed. Someone being attacked has the right to use the minimum sufficient force to protect themselves. They don't have the right to summarily execute someone if they show signs of attack.

Once the danger of attack is gone, then the right to defend yourself is gone.

I still don't see how an able bodied, armed police officer has enough to fear from an amputee in a wheelchair to justify even drawing their gun, let alone using it.

Not sure about this 'Liberal' tag - I don't think it has the same meaning outside the US.

SolTun

BullwinkleII wrote:

Here's a riddle/joke for you....

What's the difference between the United States, and Stalin's Russia?

The United States has a much larger population and a smaller area than Stalin's Russia.

cheers

SolTun

Curly wrote:

Not sure about this 'Liberal' tag - I don't think it has the same meaning outside the US.

You are probbably right the "Lib" tag (any tag for that matter) also should be seen in a cultural context

Being considerd a "right winger" or "conservative" around here (europe), I could still be taged a super liberal in "the land of the free" i gues

cheers

PS it's not my tag, it's self proclaimed by RM

SolTun

BullwinkleII wrote:

If you take away peoples right to self determination, surely you become responsible for their safety.

I don't understand why the streets of London are covered by close circuit TV, but jails have nice little nooks and crannies where the inmates can rape and kill without fear of repercussion.

By definition, if a place exists in maximum security where someone can rape someone and get away with it, the victim hasn't experienced anything that could be called responsible care from the authorities governing the establishment, and also cant possibly been considered to be in maximum security. I would call that something like "we look in from time to time" rather than maximum anything.

The only possible reason we can allow such stuff to happen is because we don't give a shi[p], and we consider that part of the punishment.

8 Things You Need to Know About America's Private Prison Industry
http://www.alternet.org/story/155286/8_ ... n_industry
:shock:

cheers

helomech

[quote="Stuart Chignell]Yes an idiot to use your word. Someone who was mentally ill and was not capable of making the decisions that were required to ensure that he didn't get himself shot.
[/quote]

Not the job of a police officer, they have to ensure that they go home at the end of the day, and that the comunity as a whole is safe. They are not responisble for any individual. All he had to do was comply.

Quote:

No I would rather they had the training so that they did not get themselves in a position where they felt the need to shoot someone. We have this same problem in Victoria and the police sadly do not have the training to deal with the mentally ill to increase the likely hood of a good outcome or at least not a tragic one (tragic being dead police officer or dead patient).

They can't be trained for every scenario, I don't want anyone to die, but when someone threatens or tries to kill someone else they take the risk of getting killed. The person defending themselves has every right to do so.

Quote:

Again I think your knowledge on mental illness is lacking. In Victoria we have had a number of deaths from the mentally ill being shot by police who were not up to the task that they were called to deal with. Those individuals ended up dead as a result of their illness and the police not having the training to deal with what was before them. It had nothing to do with the mentally ill making a decision to disobey the instructions of the police or them deciding to break the law.

No I understand mental illness, but it is not an excuse. If a person can not be trusted out in public, than they should not be in public. If someone hurts or tries to hurt someone else they should be stopped and then if they are still alive should never be out in public again.

Quote:

Maybe their politics after all how could your politics resemble both fascist and communist parties. However the lack of value that they placed on human life is what enabled them to kill those that did not agree with them.

I never said anything about killing someone I don't agree with. Please stop exagerating or lying what ever you want to call it. I said I believe in taking the life of someone that was trying to hurt someone else. This has nothing to do with their beliefs or their mental capacity. This only has to do with stopping them from hurting or killing someone else.

Quote:

You have suggested that people who are on remand/jail should have their suicides facilitated, you have suggested that the double amputee living in a home for the mentally ill was not wasting oxygen ("One less oxygen bandit.") you have said the this mentally ill individual deserved to die. Now it would make sense that based on your most recent comment that you did not realize that the individual in question was mentally ill. However, if that was the case how was I to know that.

If they want to kill themselves fine, again I am about people making their own mind up and doing what they want. Yes he was an oxygen bandit, but that does not mean I want to kill him. I believe he was a POS, yes, but I don't want to kill him. He chose to attack someone and another person and that got him killed. He deserved to die, because he was trying to hurt someone else. I believe any person deserves to die when they try to hurt or kill someone else. Self defense. Are you saying if some crazy person was trying to kill you that you would not do your best to stop them, even if it meant killing them?

helomech

earthbound wrote:

And what about his rights? He was rightly in fear of his life. Hey, he ended up dying.. He had no right to defend himself, even with a pen....?

And who was threatning his life? No one was, they just wanted him to stop doing what he was doing.

helomech

Sleepe wrote:

Simo wrote:

:think: Would it have been fair if the cop killed him with a sword?

No, a pen is mightier than a sword, even though it probably was a felt tipped one :lol:

Very quick today Rupe

Helomech
Get some rest and I hope all is well with your wife.

Thanks, she is doing pretty good. Had a bone graft in her ankle done. No walking on it for 2 months.

helomech

Curly wrote:

SolTun wrote:

I just can't see how the actions of the police, on this matter, can be justified.
(and unlike you, I'm not "a liberal")
It carries the signatur, of a violent and totalitarian police state IMO.

cheers

Agreed. Someone being attacked has the right to use the minimum sufficient force to protect themselves. They don't have the right to summarily execute someone if they show signs of attack.

Once the danger of attack is gone, then the right to defend yourself is gone.

I still don't see how an able bodied, armed police officer has enough to fear from an amputee in a wheelchair to justify even drawing their gun, let alone using it.

Not sure about this 'Liberal' tag - I don't think it has the same meaning outside the US.

That is not the case in the U.S. Deadly force can be used in many instances. It is legal to use deadly for to stop vandilism at night in Texas by using deadly force. I can even protect the property of others using deadly force. The main reason for that is so that an innocent person does not get injured or killed trying to defend their property. This is only a couple of instances where it is justifiable.

helomech

[quote="SolTun]
8 Things You Need to Know About America's Private Prison Industry
http://www.alternet.org/story/155286/8_ ... n_industry
:shock:

cheers[/quote]

The biggest problem is people being punished for crimes with no victims. I don't believe in drug laws like they are. I don't believe drugs should be illegal.

helomech

SolTun wrote:

helomech wrote:

Heck in Texas I can use deadly force to stop theft of property.

Thats a cultural thing.

In Europe a life(incl. criminals) is valued higer than property.

Good luck with your wife

cheers

Well I am glad I have the option to use force to get keep what I worked hard for. I hope I never have to use that option. Where I live crime is very low.

Thanks, hopefully this is her last ankle surgery. Hope she can get around good after this.

keith

good luck to the wife with the surgery

helomech

Thanks Keith. Yesterday was a long day, but she is feeling good. Leg is still numb, guess that is better than hurting.

julia_bites

"The biggest problem is people being punished for crimes with no victims. I don't believe in drug laws like they are. I don't believe drugs should be illegal"

I'm with you in that regard too Helomech. Harming your own body should not be a crime, harming someone else should be dealt with severely but how hard is it to protect yourself from a wheelchair bound person armed with a pen. I dont think it is acceptable to shoot and kill ppl who are not carrying a gun.
One only has to watch the American version of "Cops" to see how heavy handed and gung ho the American police force is and it boils down to culture. You will rarely see Aussie cops pulling weapons as they get out the car after pulling someone over, because we don't allow all and sundry to bear arms. The odds of someone having a concealable weapon here are very low, the odds over there are a lot higher. Your right to bear arms makes it so you need to have guns to feel safe, but in fact you are in more danger because there is so many guns in the community

____________________
I was once young and stupid, i'm not so young now

helomech

Quote:

I'm with you in that regard too Helomech. Harming your own body should not be a crime, harming someone else should be dealt with severely but how hard is it to protect yourself from a wheelchair bound person armed with a pen. I dont think it is acceptable to shoot and kill ppl who are not carrying a gun.

Do you realize how dangerous a person with a knife is? A cop should not have to risk injury to himself because someone wants to fight them. A pen stabbed to the right place is deadly, just look at what they do in prison with anything that can be sharpened. Do you really want a cop to die because he was not allowed to defend himself. A cop IMO should use what ever he has at his disposal to minimize risk to himself, and others. The person breaking the law got himself in that situation.

Ever hear of the 21 foot rule? Basically it says if you are withing 21 feet of someone the guy with the knife wins the fight. Beyond 21 feet and the guy with the gun wins. Look up some images of knife attacks if you have a strong stomach.

Quote:

One only has to watch the American version of "Cops" to see how heavy handed and gung ho the American police force is and it boils down to culture. You will rarely see Aussie cops pulling weapons as they get out the car after pulling someone over, because we don't allow all and sundry to bear arms. The odds of someone having a concealable weapon here are very low, the odds over there are a lot higher. Your right to bear arms makes it so you need to have guns to feel safe, but in fact you are in more danger because there is so many guns in the community

Now you really don't believe that is how cops pull every one over do you? I have been pullled over many many times for speeding and have never had a cop pull a gun, or even put his hand on his gun. When a cop enters your plate info into his computer he knows what he is dealing with. If you are not a threat you will not be treated as a threat. Also if he is pulling you over for speeding he is not going to pull his gun, but if he is pulling you over for trying to kill someone he will. Again you rarely ever see American cops pulling weapons either. That show is edited to show you the most dramatic footage. It is not showing you most of the normal stops they make. That would not make very good TV.

There is nothing to fear from a law abiding citizen having a concealed weapon. I carry one every where I go. The only ones that should be feared are the criminals carrying illeagally. Most people I know carry concealed all the time, and have never been shot. Yall have this veiw of things over here that are not real. If I believed the TV I would think all of you ran around the outback jumping on crocs and catching venomous snakes. I know this is not reality, it is TV.

We do not have a much higher rate of crime than yall, in fact our crime rate has been falling dramatically. What is shown on TV is not reality. I have had to pull my gun before, but I don't really know anyone else who has had to. A guy pulled a 14" long knife on me, and I pulled my gun. He put his knife away, and I left. I later found out that the guy had been arrested for road rage incidents in the past he ran a guy off the road. Had I not had my gun I may have been stabbed. With the gun, no one was hurt, and I think the guy learned a valuable lesson.

____________________

RupertofOZ

helomech wrote:

Do you realize how dangerous a person with a knife is? A cop should not have to risk injury to himself because someone wants to fight them. A pen stabbed to the right place is deadly, just look at what they do in prison with anything that can be sharpened. Do you really want a cop to die because he was not allowed to defend himself. A cop IMO should use what ever he has at his disposal to minimize risk to himself, and others. The person breaking the law got himself in that situation.

Fair enough Helomech... yes a "pen" could present a danger, and be used as a weapon....

But the guy was in a wheelchair... like the cops couldn't avoid any attack.... get around behind him and disarm him....

Like... he wasn't exactly capable of disguising any attempted attack.. and catching the cops off guard.. was he....

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Jail in north America

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