Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I have a small scale ebb and flow system that I built awhile back, its working fine and aver few weeks I get some fresh veggys... Now however Im considering expanding... how much Ill expand im not entirely sure yet so Im in the process of doing the math to try to decide how big I wanna go, which system I want to use and such.

Anyway I have a few questions...

1.) The premade systems as well as the 'diy kits' out there. are they worth it? For instance Dale and Pade's systems seem nice, but id imagine it would be cheaper to build a system for yourself...the commercial training they offer would be a help though Im sure.

2.) Friendlys DIY kit... are they any good? I see they claim to be organic certified and their students are getting certified as well... is this true or are they exaggerating. Im in Iowa, USA so Id prefer to go with usa setups which is why I listed those 2..

3.) I see most commercial setups use raft systems.. Is that because its just easier to run? I also see some use NFTs if I'm going to design my own setup I probably should start deciding on what designs to draw up.

Thats my main questions for now.. like I said Im in the early stages of deciding what to do.

Thanks.

Hey Trachr, i'm also in the process of deciding what type of commercial system to go with. I know Friendly's is certified Organic and have gotten many of their students certified. They claim to deliver a bullet proof system and I believe them. I haven't ordered their commercial package because of funds but plan on in the future.

The DWC (raft systems) have many benefits over other avenues. With the increase of water volume from the troughs, you get greater stability in many parameters. It's harder 10,000G of water to change a few degrees than it is for say 500G. The PH is more stable and less lightly to have nighttime swings. The rafts also make it easy to harvest vs grow beds.

If you have any mechanical skills then I would suggest you take the Friendlys route and build your own system. You will save a ton of money and have an intimate knowledge of every aspect of the design. If your not a DIY type of guy/girl then you really don't have much of a choice other than buying a kit or hiring someone to assist. Good luck and keep us posted on what route you decide to take.

Some of the "Friendlies" style systems... in the US... have received organic certification... from some certifying agencies..

But only, as with the "Friendlies".... for vegetable produce....

Bare in mind as well... that your location/climate.... might not duplicate the yield/growth rate results gained by the "Friendlies" in Hawaii...

I'm pretty mechanical so putting it together shouldn't be an issue, however I will need some sort of general idea of production possibilities of their system. To take the class I want to make sure funding is available, to get funding you need to have an idea of profitability, which means I need to at least have some idea of what the systems are capable of. I suppose I can just take what the say on their website but I'm guessing that's very best case scenarios.

The example they give is a 4096 square foot setup that costs 21,995 (hawaii costs) and they produce 26,410 plants... it dosent say what plants, so I assume lettuce?

If anyone has firmer numbers please let me know, and because as you mentioned, I dont have the joy of living in a perfect climate, so Ill have to do greenhouse growing, so to make a profit Ill have to go big... aquaponics appear to be an economy of scale.

While I'm thinking about greenhouses let me ask a couple more questions... Has anyone ever thought about converting a pole barn into a building with poly on 1 side, so if its a metal pole barn remove 1 side of the roof, seems like that would reduce a lot of heat loss. My other option would be to try to use growlights... however the biggest area growlights Ive found are costly in both upfront cost and just the wattage usage. a dollar a day per light would make profitability tough.

Anyone have any thoughts on greenhouses or lighting, even with a full greenhouse in the winter Ill need to supplement lighting so I need to get that figured out.

I personally believe the reason most aquaponic ventures in temperate climates are unprofitable is simply a matter of not accounting for all the variables... heat loss, electricity, etc they are big variables and I think it kills off a lot of businesses, so I wanna make sure I do this right.

trachr,
I really hope you won't take this the wrong way (I mean it as a friendly helpful reality check.)

If you need funding just to build the system, are having to build it on your own time, and need income to survive as you do it, you probably can't do it.

What I'm saying is if you have to get a big loan just to build the commercial operation and have to start making payments on that loan as soon as construction is finished and you don't have a huge amount of capital on hand to keep you/your family alive and start paying the loan for the first 6 months until your production starts ramping up, you probably can't do it.

Aquaponics is FARMING and there is no income until the first crop is in and you can't really expect your first few crops to really be all that great as you are still getting things up and running.

Aquaponics as a farm is also a small business and most small business start ups, the people starting it up don't get paid for the first several years and this is why most small businesses don't make it past their first few years. It is a huge investment to really get off the ground.

That said. The aquaponics its self, you can probably build the system based on plans you can get from elsewhere. If you want Friendlies support, then take their course. If you want Nelson and Pade's support take their course. I suspect that learning about controlled environment agriculture from Nelson and Pade might be more appropriate for you since they are in a climate closer to you.

Do lots of research into 4 season greenhouse production in your climate. What does heating/cooling and supplemental lighting cost in your area.

Converting a pole barn is not necessarily going to save you anything unless the side you would leave intact is already insulated with spray foam.

Be sure to choose appropriate fish and plants for the temperatures you will be able to maintain reasonably in a greenhouse in your location.

Keep in mind that you can't run a commercial aquaponics operation in only a few hours a week unless you can pay some one else to do it for you. During the build and first season or so, you will probably be putting in many hours every day (it's farming) and only after things settle in are you likely to be able to get down to an average of a few hours a day per say 1000 heads of lettuce per week. You can't really expect to find an intern and train them to do it for you consistently until after you have learned the procedures for your operation yourself. And Interns have to be supervised so they don't always save you from having to be there to do it.

Thank you for your concern and be assured I wont go into this until I know I can do it... I will take a training course when Ive decided to proceed. Also I am aware how loans work and how businesses start up, and I know that the success rate of any business start up is bleak to say the least... 50% failure rate over 2 years and 90 or 95 over 5years I think it is. I also come from a farming family so I'm all too aware of bad years and good years and Id imagine I wont have a good year for a 2-3 years... in fact when I do projections I'm not even sure if Ill figure 50% of what Id predict an average yield will be.

As for pole barns, my only concern is initial cost, I know they would be cheaper in the long run I just don't how long the payback would be... Ive been doing heat loss calculations on a lot of structures and greenhouses in winter suck to say the least... at least if you want to try to stay somewhat warm in January.

But yes, I'm well aware that all the odds are stacked against me, they would be in any start up idea... the thing is if everyone gave up at first glance of those odds then there would be no success stories, Yes this will probably fail, and yes Ill be working tons of hours trying to get it going...but what if this is the 1 in 10 that will succeed? Ill never know if I don't at least try.

But thank you for the reality check, I'm sure a lot of people jump into things without trying to take into account all that can go wrong... me I assume its all gonna go wrong lol I just don't let it stop me from trying.

I am building my system to be commercial. Well I am making it big enough so that I can sell commercially. I am paying for everything up front, and if I don't sell a single thing I am fine with that. As long as I can feed my family, and all our animals I will consider it a success

Good to hear trachr,
it seems so many people just discover the idea of aquaponics and are all set to make their first million from their desk with the idea. Good to know you already understand farming.

Greenhouses are difficult to keep warm in January but there are methods. You definitely want the light though and retrofitting a pole bard to be a greenhouse won't necessarily do you any better than designing structures for your systems that will handle providing light for the plants while being able to insulate. The biggest challenge is figuring out the best way to go in your location/situation.
I know in China they make greenhouses that they can cover up at night or when a blizzard comes with a roll out blanket sort of thing. New Alchemy did A frame sort of greenhouses where the south side had insulating and reflective panels that would be opened up in the morning to reflect more light into the greenhouse and then get closed up in the evening to insulate. This of course is more labor intensive.

Of course a big part of it will be, what scale are you wanting to go and what will be your main products and what is your market. Gotta figure out the goals of your system to be most efficient in the design.

The concept of commercial AP is nothing new and been dicussed here many times.

I suppose we need to look closer at the definition of "commercial" and what it means to you.

A couple of definitions from the web..

1. Prepared, done, or acting with sole or chief emphasis on salability, profit, or success
2. Able to yield or make a profit

My thoughts are if you have a system and your selling produce in some way or form it could be considered commercial on some level. The success of that system in a commercial sense is really up to the individual.... not everyone will agree with you but as long as you are happy with what you have achieved.

ya, a roll out blanket/reflective panels may be the way to go, as for the polebarn I was assuming 3 closed/insulated walls half the roof and just the north side converted into probably polycarbonate...

assuming 6 inch fiberglass bats on closed sides that's r19 for all but the 1 wall which would of course depend what I used there, 1.7 if regular greenhouse plastic or 2ish if I went poly carbonate... but if I were to just roll that same 6 inch fiberglass bat our at night that very well could solve the heating issue...

As for size, that is what Im trying to determine... its just tricky figuring out what an 'average' harvest would be which is what Id need to know to decide profitability, unfortunately my experience is with ebb and flow, rafts not so much which is why I'm trying to learn all I can before I jump in. Having said that however, most grants/loans for my area would want me to be able to employ ppl... recession and all... which Id find wonderful, so IF and this is a major IF I find it feasible Id try for 200,000 or more heads of lettuce a year.

I wouldn't probably actually grow lettuce, Id grow whatever there was a demand for.

So back to greenhouses looking at that estimate of 200,000 if I go by Nelson and Pades commercial system guide their version that produces that many is 98,000 us dollar and has 3-4 bays of 30x120 systems

hopefully I could design a more space efficient system but if we take those numbers as a general guide, you would need 3 or 4 large greenhouses which if my figures are correct just one of them if a "traditional" greenhouse with R1.42 double layer plastic would be $14,779 annually (this is assuming 8 heating months, 31 degrees F average low and wanting a greenhouse temp of 70 degrees) It also assumes nothing is in the greenhouse to help buffer the temp changes...

So Im aware it wouldn't be that bad but I'm figuring worst case scenarios here... and in all honesty my math may be off Ive only run those numbers once so far. But ya from what Im seeing that's the biggest annual expense I need to combat. Taking again nelson and pades system as a guide that is 59 thousand every hear in natural gas costs alone ... yuck... thats why Im trying to figure ways to make that more efficient.

That also gives you a general idea of the scale I was looking at, Im perfectly happy going up or down depending on funding and profitability, but my initial estimates based on their numbers I would run a profit with 40k pay for myself and 5-6 part time workers... this also assumes my initial year will be 50% of what nelson and pade say is a good year and then a 15% improvement after that year for the next few years.

Now Ill be the first to admit some of my figuring was wild assumptions, such as packing costs which I have no clue at the moment, and there are a few other assumptions I made... I also dont know if nelson and pades numbers are feasible... after all they are in the business of selling kits and tours... that dosent necessarily make them the ideal source of information.

anyway I'm done rambling now lol, if you see any numbers grossly wrong please let me know I need accurate info, without it I wont even start writing a business plan.... I said if I don't try Ill never know... that dosent mean Ill try blindly lol

I think there are some important question you have to ask yourself before entering into any business let alone try to set up a commercial aquaponics system.

Do you have any experience in growing commercial crops of any sort?

If not, go and volunteer on a commercial hydroponic farm for a few weeks and see how you like it. Most of the day to day stuff will be similar, planting and harvesting. I spent only 1 day on a hydroponic farm before realizing it's something I would never be able to do long term. Made me take off my rosey glasses..

Still, forgot all about that a few years later and set up our semi-commercial trial, there was another reminder after running that for a while, that it's damn hard work and extremely hard to make it pay anything close to a wage.

Don't be drawn in by the hype of people selling systems and trainings.. Thats how most of them make their money, through selling systems and training. They will be long gone when your struggling 7 days a week trying to make a $ growing and selling veg. Then you'll end up deciding, gee, perhaps it will be easier if I sell systems and training....

"Those who can, do. Those who cannot, coach."

I need to find a hydroponic farm around here first that will let me even volunteer... growing power maybe, they are 3-4 hours away. Aquaponic wise my own small system is all the experience I have, commercial crops ya I have experience but traditional farming is a long ways from commercial aquaponics.

Growing power is not a commercial enterprise as such, they run on volunteers, along with a few other suppossed commercial aquaponic places. You won't necesarily have that luxury. Don't worry so much about it being AP, just find a hydroponic place, thats where most of your time will be taken up anyway, with the plant side..

Ill look for one, thanks for the advice

I know the the crops are the main income with the fish basically just supporting themselves though I'm a lil tempted to try tropical ornamental fish in one of the tanks if I give this a go.

Ive bred tropical fish for years so it would be nice if I can figure a way to incorporate it in as well, that's actually how I worked around to this idea in a roundabout way... breed fish and heard about aquaponics so built a small system that replaces a lot of the traditional filtration, and I get to eat fresh strawberries and such lol.

But ya dont worry Ill make sure Im capable and want to do this large scale before I try it...and ill make sure its profitable.