Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Obviously, as Rupe is getting at, any change in society requires that the people desire that change. Thats why I don't see much point in getting involved in politics in the hope of making change (the Ron Paul story aside, which was extremely successful in an educational role).
Real changes comes in the form of a grassroots movement. At this time, the libertarian movement is quite small (but it has grown a lot since the '80s) (opinion warning) my personal theory is that public sentiment towards govenment varies in accordance with the business cycle. I am fairly convinced that by the time the next depression is fully underway public sentiment will start to change in a significant way. Our paradigm is over 50 years of economic expansion, along with government expansion.
No one really knows any different.

The wild west may not have been as wild as popular culture makes out (I think it was still in the west though ). This is a link to a summary of a book that explores that very topic. http://mises.org/daily/4108

So Rupe is arguing that the pure anarcho-capitalist solution will have issues regarding representing those who would normally be represented by the state because they don't have much money etc. however believes that government can in fact be corrupt, big banks are pretty much evil, (Im not sure if you see the banks and govt interdependence as fully as I do)

EB seems to be arguing that all regulations are good, government is not corrupt and inherently good and the solution to all of lifes problems is just a matter of getting enough regulations and welfare and safety nets in place.

-whether the above is accurate or not I'm not sure, but thats the impression that is being given. Correct ?

Rupe as the link above hints at, there are examples of the application of anarcho-capitalism in our history to a lessor or greater extent. The theory behind the full implementation is extremely interesting, very logical and at the very least a great though exercise. I will remain hopeful. Just as I remain hopeful that one day we never have murders. It will never happen..correction it may never happen, but I think it is something worth striving for... Additionally it is not an absolute, progress can be made in either direction, I can see in which direction progress is going in now, and I believe its ultimate projection is not a good one.

Re collective action and government:
Like I said I have no issue with people collectively deciding rules to govern themselves. The issue I have is when it becomes involuntary, when you force someone to do somthing or take something from them that was rightfully theirs. Thats why the US constitution tried so hard to limit the federal govts power, and give the power to the states. The states do not then have a monopoly over the people, (unless they prevented free travel, but I don't think you could call them states then) infact they are technically in competition with each other to some degree. If one state became tyrannical for instance, the people would just go to the next state. This naturally limits the ultimate power of the local governments. Unlike today where the US govt sees itself as having almost ultimate power, no limitations.

EB you still have not provided any possible solutions to the obesity problem. It seems very easy to attack a view that is not your own, however another thing to present the alternative.
The libertarian view is not perfect, I never said it was, I never implied it was.
With all the regulations we have today (and growing) the obesity problem is getting worse.
What is your solution ??

End subsidies for corn, that would help.

It should be easier to adjust regulations that you don't like than to wait around for a country where no regulations exist. Heck you can even loosen regulations that don't make sense anymore (like ones that keep sugar cane more expensive than native corn syrup for example).

SV if your argument is that there are no good regulations then I think you'll lose every time.

I agree Dave.

Its not like things can change instantly
and again, it requires everyone to agree anyway.
I think most of us can agree that at least some of the regulations we see are just insanely stupid and restrictive.

Some regulations are much worse than others.
Some regulations seem good, often however the "good" ones just reverse or counteract the bad ones in some way.

If you were going to get rid of 50% of the regulations, Im sure you could seperate them in order of usefulness.

I think there are two ways to achieve what we want to do. One is use regulations, the other is enforce private property rights. One of the problems with regulations is they they are so inflexible.
How do you know if the regulation is strict enough, or too strict ? To change them often requires an expensive lengthy process by govt officials and the end result still may not be adequate. This expense is also added to the burden of all participants in the industry, and all the tax payers.

The private property rights option ensures that action is only taken when there has actually been pollution. The owner of the polluted land proves pollution by another and seeks damages by the polluter. In this way we solve the problem of inflexible regulations.
The polluter must pay full damages to the other. Often regulations are not strict enough and the polluter can get away with paying far less in damages than the actual cost to the environment.
Also small operators are not saddled with the burdens of expensive regulations when there is no chance their pollution (if any) causes any harm whatsoever.
Some will argue that any pollution of any kind whatsoever is bad even if you can't measure it.
If take this attitude then human progress will grind to a halt and we will have to go back to subsistence farming.
The libertarian view of pollution is that if it must be able to be detected and that it interferes with anothers use of their property, whatever that use may be.

When you slip a "seems" in there, you can say whatever you like... Government, tax and regulation bashing, is like tabloid media, it's a cheap easy draw card that fills seats, of course everyone loves to hear "get rid of all the taxes, get rid of all regulations", but this doesn't necessarily help deal with real world issues.

I haven't said that I have the answers, you said that a libertarian society is the ideal, and the way countries should be running. I'm questioning that, saying that it doesn't work in reality and providing examples of where and how it doesn't work. I don't know the exact answers, the answers are not simple and they should be left up to much smarter people than me to work out how to solve. But the free market ideal would take away the ability for government to do anything about solveing the problem. This is just one of MANY problems that REQUIRE a government to regulate/educate/etc for the good of the people.

This is the crux of it all, the libertarian ideal is that there shall be NO interference by government, especially where commercial entities or interests are concerned, otherwise it's not free market. This may sound ideal if you only look at the political/economic side but it's at the cost of the social and environmental side of society.

I “slipped” a seems in there solely to give you the benefit of explaining your position as you see it, not how it comes across to me.

Actually Govt, tax and regulation bashing is not a cheap easy drawcard, as many of the responses here make clear. The easy position is to push the status quo, to repeat the general govt line we see on TV and in all the papers.

Understanding all sides of the argument and then making informed choices takes a lot more work. I'm not saying all statists don't look at both sides, but most people don't, regardless of position.

You havent said you have any answers, only that govt is great and we shouldn't question it. The “smart” people will always make the right decisions for us. They are all looking out for us...

You havent provided any examples of how it doesnt work. The example you came up with was a poor example, your source of information was simply wrong.

“REQUIRE” exactly, you believe it is absolutely required, IMO you will never consider the alternative...

This is a big problem with the environmentalist movement, they believe that you cannot put a dollar cost on social and environmental costs.
I say you can, we do, and we must.
If you cant put a dollar cost on environmental damage, then you will never know if it is adequately addressed, whether addressed by regulations or a tort process. This highlights the fundamental weakness of regulations in comparison to property rights. Also the people making the regulations do not have any particular interest in considering economics costs, which why some regulations cost huge amounts to comply with, for questionable advantages.

Would you also argue you cannot put a cost on human life or safety ?

There is a reason that subscribers to the Austrian business cycle theory were the ONLY people who were predicting the 2008 financial crises.
Out of all the “smart” government economists and experts, not a single one of them predicted the most obvious end to current government policy. Thousands and thousands of “smart” people around the world, all failed to forsee the obvious and historically repeated result of govt economic policy.
And “crazy” people like Ron Paul, and pretty much every other Austrian Economist (or student of) knew what was going to happen. Just like they all know what is about to happen over the next several years.

The govt employs the “smart” people to further its own ends, to continue and expand the attitude among the people that a big and growing government is the only way for a better world. It is very successful in this. Right now governments in the western world have never been bigger, and never been more successful in this campaign. It is understandable, there is no reason why the state would promote reducing itself..

Don't know about that... I was predicting it.... simply because the financial institutions were creating virtual money... and playing monopoly...

It was obviously inflationary... and unsustainable... and someone eventually was going to have to pay...

Likewise... I predicted that it would be "joe blow" the public... that would pay for it... as always...

Indeed...
Are you predicting the rest of the financial crisis ?
The one where 2008 will look like a walk in the park.. nothing has changed.. at all.
Infact it is significantly worse than before. Well maybe apart from US housing, which has mostly reset, I think it still has a fair way to fall..

And none of this has really even started here. The reserve bank is getting a little worried as it lowers the rate. We have been nicely isolated due to China's ridiculous expansion but that is already starting to taper off....
Hang on to your hats

EDIT: ok so maybe not the ONLY people
It was pretty funny though that the big wig economists were saying things like "it caught us by surprise" etc.
I guess they have to, otherwise their entire policy of currency debauchery might be called into question

I agree... I also foresaw the European crisis.... and have actually been surprised that the "big bang" hasn't happened as fast as I thought it might....

The US is, and has been for ages.... bankrupt... why they remain the "reserve currency" is beyond me.... it's only because of a "belief" that they will bounce back....

It's pretty much impossible to predict when. It depends entirely on govt policy, and that changes every other day.
All the govts will kick the can down the road for as long as possible. It is political suicide to initiate the depression that is required to repudiate all the bad debt and malinvestment.
I just hope someone does have the balls to do it instead of silly things like hyperinflation.
The longer it goes on the worse it will be, expecially for the middle class.

The US will do everything it can to hang on to reserve currency status. They are exporting their inflation all around the world. There are bigger powers at work behind the scenes making sure govts don't tell the US to bugger off.
It has started though, sanctions on Iran have helped. China, Russia, Irans trading partners are all looking into using alternatives to the dollar. Some transactions have already taken place.

Lets make a deal SV, you stop pushing your political barrow, and I'll stop pushing mine.. There are plenty of places to discuss politics and religion, and really this isn't the place..

Ok, I will respond to questions from others though.

If I have made even one person think about things differently then I am happy
Even if those that followed the thread become more resolute in their own views, then that is good too.

Ummm not wanting to wade into this again but.....

I've done some research on the Austrian school of economics which it turns out is a pretty crap collective description of a group of economists from the 1800's to present day many of their ideas seem to me quite good and reasonable. As they do to many since significant portions of their theories or theories that have been based upon their work have at least had an influence on how modern economies are thought to work and hence how people attempt to manage national economies.

It seems though that it is their adherents that are to a large number fruitcakes. While I dont agree with almost anything SV has said since his first post I thought the General Banter section of the forum was for members to talk about whatever they chose. Obviously there are limits but those limits are governed by the laws of our nation and even as nutty as SV's ideas seem to be I don't think it is a good idea to discourage him to air them.

After all wouldn't you rather that such views would be public and that if he managed to find any other wackos to agree with him that we know about it?

The best example of this in recent times is Pauline Hanson and the One Nation party which as repugnant as their ideas are they did the nation a favour by giving voice to them in the public arena. Doing so allowed their views to be discussed and then repudiated. While that has not solved the problems of racism and xenophobia it has helped to move the collective public's view toward a more tolerant society.

Couldn't agree more Stuart with everything you've said - except the above bit.

It's BYAP's forum, so it is ultimately their call. They offer this to us free, at their cost, to promote aquaponics and related subjects as that is their interest and ultimately their source of a living. They're not going to that trouble so thet SV can put up 200+ posts pushing his brand of idealism - there are already forums dedicated to that sort of crap.

If he put all that energy into his system, and promoting aquaponics, he'd be a rockstar on this forum.

Newcomer's to the site can easily be discouraged when they jump on for the first time and see that the highest trending thread has bugger all to do with aquaponics and is a soapbox for a very small group of people - it'll start making Murray's forum look more informational.

Yes, he's free to say what pretty much what he wants in this country, and I respect his right to do so, but as I've said there is plenty of forums for that where he'll get a real debate, so, show some respect for the people that own this forum and have built it up to the best one available FOR THIS SUBJECT MATTER.

I agree with both of you, in part

This thread, while just as non AP related as hundreds of other less controversal threads (jokes, toys, public schooling, Inspirational TED talks, etc), gets some people quite emotionally involved and as a result encourages a lot of responses (including the childish offhand comments) . As chillidude points out, newcomers MAY be put off. And it is up to BYAP of course.

Stuart I agree it is an important topic and anyone reading the thread who agrees and still wants to debate what I have to say is very welcome to PM me.

If it was possible to make this thread invisible in the " View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts" sections then I would argue that this is not an issue at all. Or if BYAP wanted to add a "politics" section

I will PM you Stuart regarding your post, I have a few questions