Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

not quite

Not the best way to say it but my point was that they have no protection. Whats to stop someone from suing them claiming that they knowingly sold a dangerous product. I guess every container would need a disclaimer - use at your own risk. It's sometimes cheaper to settle these suits than it is to fight them even if you're in the right.

A court would probably the most suitable way to find out who is in the wrong. It could be neglect on the part of the farmer, or poor treatment of the milk by the consumer. A disclaimer too would probably help the farmer fight the frivolous claims.

OK lets simplify the conversation with a few basic facts. If you choose to eat meat (invariably most of it is grain fed these days) you increase the consumption foot print into global grain inventories anywhere from 3kg of grain to produce 1kg of chicken, to 9kg of grain to produce 1kg of beef. If you haven't noticed wheat, corn and soybean prices, the 3 main staple foods to 7 billion people and billions of livestock, have increased by 50% in anywhere from a month to 3 months lately. What that says is todays grain farmers, conspiracies aside, are struggling to feed the world.

This is clearly a risk to the project that is civilisation, and the most obvious way to free up grain supply is to reduce demand for meat, because meat is an inefficient way to deliver calories to us humans in a resource constrained world. Its not rocket science, its not a conspiracy, it is from a government's perpsective the right thing to do and that is to disuade meat consumption. Food inflation is not something the world needs now or ever given we are all awash with debt or depreciating assets for retirement.

I have read Joel's musing on the dire situation in relation of global fish supplies. It pales into comparison to the dire state of global grain inventories. And just how is aquaponics solving that crisis if all the fish feed is derived from fish meal?? I have yet to see a fish food that does not have fish meal in it!!!!!!

So you can throw in the cheap digs and throw away lines about conspiracy theories and you certainly wouldn't expect it from posting heavy weights, but the fact of the matter is government is getting bigger and it will impact your ability to make money because our choices are leading us down a path of unsustainability.

There is only so many chillies you can buy when flour has tripled in price, there is only so many fancy aquaponics setups you can afford when cooking oils have tripled in value and there is only so much milk you can drink when it uz $4 a litre (in NZ) Rupert.

So what you're really saying is... that even if we have a right to choose.... we don't really have a choice....

What I am saying is you need to respect the opinions of others rather than revert to the default of labelling people with alternative views as conspiracy theorists? The original poster asked a very valid question and yet a number of senior posters who clearly hadn't even watched the video because they were likely busy posting, came out playing the man or me (leatherman).

And yep, it is becoming increasingly obvious to all that choice is defaulting to government policy. Restriction on fish species, movement, water use etc etc. Government interference is worrying enough to disuade me from buying into this expensive hobby at the present time.

if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice

What governmental interference in aquaponics do you perceive, and what level of expense do you perceive??

1. Access to species - 3 of the top 4 herbivorous aquaculture species are essentially illegal to produce in WA. That is tilapia, carp and jade perch. The 3 which are most likely to be able to be bred by the home aquaponics operator. Fingerlings are a major input cost.

2. Potentially access to fish meal enriched feedstocks - because aside from silvers the other choices are carnivorous omega 3 requiring fish. Link below suggesting a squeeze on omega 3 supplies as early as next year:

http://www.fish2fork.com/news-index/Fis ... evels.aspx

Expense is the predictable and potential for unpredictable cost inputs into the future.

Troutman and others are in the process of obtaining permission to introduce Jade Perch into WA...

Certainly Tilapia, being mouth brooders are easily able to be bred... essentially they're self breeding... and that's one of the dangers they present...

Likewise with carp.. and both species have very low demand water quality, and oxygen requirements... which potentially gives them an overwealming advantage of most "native" species...

The Jade Perch however... IS NOT self breeding... like most of our native fish... spawning at the hatcheries is induceded by hormone injection...


Silver and Jade Perch are a "carnivorous omega 3 requiring fish".... Tilapia aren't, nor are Carp...

Looks like Koi are legal. They may not be called Carp but... plenty of ugly ones get thrown out because breeders don't want them.

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Here in the US they are very concerned about what's going to happen with native fish species in several rivers and potentially the great lakes because of Asian Carp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxSvhtPoKU4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJDVg35qPNs&feature=related

If they make it into the Great Lakes it could affect a huge fishery and many other river systems.

Having seen the video in the original post. There are a few notes to make.
In some of the cases, the extreme nature of the actions taken are way out of proportion to the actual crimes committed. For the most part the actual crimes were things like not getting a business license to sell a produce (like in the case of the guy in PA who was selling raw milk and other raw dairy products.) It is legal there to sell raw milk but the gov still wants their cut like the money they get from businesses paying for the business license each year. That would warrant a fine but of course if the authorities fine you and you don't pay, they can escalate it to the point of raiding and putting you out of business.

Now I haven't researched any of the cases in the video so I don't know what's exaggerated and what's left out but I do know crazy stupid things can happen when some official decides that a particular case should be made into an example.

As to raw milk, I think people should get to choose but I can understand limitations on selling or commercially transporting raw milk or other specially exempt agricultural products across state lines (mind you I said commercially transporting, if some one wants to drive to a farm and buy raw milk and bring it home to consume themselves then let them do it.) To keep milk safe, pasteurization isn't necessarily the only way but very clean careful handling is important. In the early days of pasteurization, not all milk was pasteurized and the terrible outbreaks of illness from the "swil" dairies had far more to do with the conditions in the dairies and what the cows were fed and that led to stricter rules about sanitation and sterilization of milk handling spaces, containers and equipment.
Incidents can happen and they tend to happen far more often in the industrial food system than they do on the small farm scale. I would personally rather take my risks eating food from farms I know (though raw milk can only be fed to your pets here in Florida.) And eating my yard eggs (I'm sure the industrial agriculture concerns would prefer that everyone must buy eggs that are trucked to grocery stores rather than ones they can raise in their own back yards.)

The county codes where I lived before are rather unclear about if it is legal to have backyard chickens for small scale personal use in residential zoning. They seem to read that it would be totally illegal to have chickens but if you read it that way, then it is also totally illegal to harvest fruit off your backyard fruit trees or grow vegetables. But when I talked with the county they said that personal vegetable gardens and dooryard citrus are legal so if reading it that way, having some chickens for personal egg consumption is legal too but the officials like to pick and choose how to interpret the laws sometimes it seems.

And the laws are sometimes a bit tricky to figure out and they of course vary from state to state and county to county here in the US so it can get really tricky. For example, here in FL a business license isn't required to sell agricultural products though the county would like you to think it is since they want the income from selling the business licenses. And a business license alone doesn't necessarily give you the right to sell your products and finding out what sort of certificates, licenses, permits or registrations you need isn't always all that easy either. For example last year I got my CERTIFICATE OF NURSERY REGISTRATION since the way I was selling my produce was essentially as live plants. Well you need the nursery inspection in order to sell aquatic plants but I didn't know that I also needed an aquaculture certificate to raise those aquatic plants. See the way the stuff reads it seems that either one or the other would be adequate and they don't mention each other but each department claims you need to pay for their inspection to sell the aquatic plants.

One of the people interviewed in that video that was posted at the beginning of the thread is Joel Salatin of Polyface Farm and he has written some publications about the tribulations of trying to do sustainable farming and trying to get away from the confined feeding operations that are providing us with some of these terrible health problems (antibiotic resistant illnesses from the extreme over use of antibiotics just to keep animals alive when they are stuck breathing poo all the time etc.) Anyway one of his titles resonates with me "Everything I want to do is Illegal"
Here is a link to a talk he gave here in FL
http://vimeo.com/40837674

great post TC on your thoughts/experiences.
Still havent had a chance to watch that vid, but I will soon hopefully.

And for those who might be confused here.
I generally DON'T Believe in conspiracy theories. Mainly because I don't think the bureaucracy is that smart. There are individuals that are smart enough and I'm sure some of the businesses involved in industrial agriculture are smart enough but trying to co-ordinate a whole bureaucracy into a conspiracy I just don't think it works.

More likely is the comedy of errors that many of us trying to get past the red tape don't find all that Funny.

If you avoid the "motivations" of why govt etc do certain things, and just stick to the "actions"...what is actually done, then you should avoid most "conspiracy theory" acusations