Backyard Aquaponics
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Absolutely not. The act alone does not imply this. I'm saying that by NOT voting you are not achieving anything. Not voting once is a protest, not voting twice could be seen as standing firm to your cause, not voting multiple times and still complaining about the government is a cop out, and no more helpful or better than someone who skips voting through through laziness or indecission.

And some people still believe that voting is part of fixing the problem.

But if nothing has changed after the first few times, how does voting again help?
And why would I compromise my principles by doing so?
If I could go to some part of the country where there was zero govt influence, and no taxes then I would actually have a choice in the matter. I could vote with my feet. (This was the reason the US constitution put so much emphasis on little federal power and more state power, people can easily move)

I would expect you to vote Libertarian if Australia has such a party. I would expect that you believe in the democratic process and would want to shift things closer to your goal even if no perfect candidate existed. For most of us no perfect candidate does exist. Even when we think we have one that's close most of us are at least somewhat dissapointed once they are actually in office (usually more than a bit). While you may not be voting, you're not really making your point, most would just blame it on voter apathy and you'd be clumped with all those that were to lazy to get up from watching the TV. At least do a write in or vote for yourself.



This does help determine how resources are allocated but I don't believe that it is necessarily how people want the resources allocated. People often lack the knowledge to know what resources are used in the production of a product. People might actually want the resources allocated in other ways if they knew the true cost of producing an item. It is a way to vote with your money - the company supplying the product decides what resources are consumed not the consumer.

SV you have an obligation as a citizen to vote. More than that you are required to vote by the laws of our nation. Yes you can shirk that responsibility by donkey voting if you so chose but that means that your are just abrogating your civic duty.

If you truly believe that voting for any of the people on a potential upcoming ballot is truly the about choosing the lesser of two evils and that voting for the lesser legitimises their shortcomings then you should ensure that there will be a new candidate for that ballot. That means either nominating yourself or finding someone else who will nominate and supporting them with their campaign.

sounds like a pretty defeatist attitude if you ask me. Nothing changed after something you've tried, so you are just going to complain about the situation without trying something else?

voting is voting, whether it is done under a highly structured process or with a show of hands (or feet in this case). Why you think that you will gain anything by waiting for the "perfect" moment or situation in which to vote puzzles me. Almost analogous to the short term vs long term investment return. You can wait for ever for the market to be just right and win big, or you can get on wih things and make baby steps. Either you believe voting makes a difference and partake, or you don't and you find another way to contribute...I don't realy care. But I personally not going to give much consideration to a person with only complaints and suggestions they are in willing to follow through with.

My point is that people who dont vote, and don't take any other action in the democratic process in order to improve things, and still sit there complaining about what others are doing as if it is someone else's responsibility to fix things demand very little attention to their complaints.

I would but there isn't. Actually there is one (sort of) but I don't know that much about them ldp.org.au, need to find out more.

Thats providing another govt party is the correct solution. You are still assuming we NEED govt to control us. My opinion is that we do not.

In my opinion that is because it is not possible for govt to properly manage people. The govt is a group of individuals. Another individual can never know what people want in advance, and they can never know what is best for someone else. How dare I tell you what is best for you ?
That is not freedom.

I care little how others will see me, its not relevant. You are right, I am not really making a point or even a difference, I am just upholding my principles. If society decided that the current govt (all parties) were rubbish and no one voted, that would send a strong message indeed wouldn't it?


No one has that obligation.

Have you ever wondered why we need laws to make people vote? Individuals don't have the choice over whether they get a government or not, and on top of that the are forced to vote between meaningless "parties" of this government. When we have 2 parties to choose from with basically the same values, and we are forced to choose between one, that becomes our "duty" ??

Yes it might.
But what if someone didn't want a government? What if they believed we would be better off without one. What if this person is correct?
Just for the sake of this argument, WHAT IF it really is better without one? What now are the implications for the people who have no choice?

I'm not just sitting around complaining, I am fairly active in discussing the concepts of liberty with my peers. I don't believe changing government first is the most effective way to do things. Any REAL change comes from the people, not the rulers

I never said that.
Right now I am making an effort to introduce a few people reading this to the concepts of liberty. Some people can actually see the tyranny in govt regulations and spending, they may not understand the underlying economic principles and thats where I hope to help. I think that is doing much more than complaining don't you agree?
I made the choice and effort to start these conversations, and it is these sorts of conversations that start to change public opinion....

Real change by the rulers... or of the rulers.... usually requires a revolution by the people....

And that's just historical fact.... or at least.. historical experience...

What I am saying is if you dont vote for anyone ( independents, greens etc). Then dont sit and complain about the govenment you get. Choosing a lesser evil is still marginally better than a greater evil... Or get up and do something yourself. What I am tired of is people complaining about the govenment that is in when they did nothing to vote them out after the debacle of their first term. Ie I made a big statement to them by not voting at all that showed them... Well by not voting against the encumbant you might as well voted for them....

But this is an AP forum.

Go live in Somalia or any of the other failed states where rape, torture and murder are a fact of life and tell me that a non functioning govenment or no govenment is a good thing.

Usually yes. Any significant change is by nature opposed by the current regime.
However more gradual change is also feasible, we have gradually aquired a larger and larger state. There is no reason why we can't gradually reduce the state as well.

I just covered this point above, regarding what I feel I AM doing, and the arguments about voting.

There are all sorts of non-AP categories and posts on this forum....


I pasted this link somewhere else. Its only a short article and might shed some more light on the Somalia situation. Interesting read..

http://www.peterleeson.com/better_off_stateless.pdf

I pasted this link somewhere else. Its only a short article and might shed some more light on the Somalia situation. Interesting read..

http://www.peterleeson.com/better_off_stateless.pdf[/quote]

Somalia had a dictatorship which in no way resembled our democratic govenment so its pretty hard to say that the anarchy they have now would be better than a functioning democratic govenment . Are they better off now in anarchy that under a government bent on killing them?, probably. But would they not be even better off under a democartically elected goverment that values the rule of law and has its citizens welfare at heart. The answer is yes. So your example really is not an argument for no goverment at all.

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Man... it turns out I DID need algebra in my every day life.

Nothing to do with this topic or anything, but I really did need algebra

I have this habit of pasting entire latrines of stuff into google as a search, to see where it came from. I put the first page of this thread into google and it gave me something I've never seen before....

it gave me a little picture of a broken robot, and this...


414. That’s an error.

The requested URL /search... is too large to process. That’s all we know.


But when I tried again (I'm like that) it gave me a stack of quotes that looked the same, word for word.