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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 18:08 
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Rupert from what I can gather you are referring to the US and Europe ?
All these countries are going bankrupt because the government is spending more money that it earns (what govt doesnt?)
The banks are going bankrupt because they are protected by the government, and so have no incentive not to make extremely risky investments. They SHOULD have been allowed to go bankrupt years ago. We wouldnt be on the verge of financial chaos today if that were the case.

Please explain how this is not the opposite of a free market ?

You are right in that the US has one of the more free market economies (top 20 maybe?)
However its the government spending and regulation(protection) of the mega corporations that is the cause of all the trouble.

A free market has an inbuilt protection mechanism against poor investment/poor customer service etc. Bankruptcy. Bankruptcy weeds out the bad companies the moment they stop servicing society in a way that society desires.


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 18:25 
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You know what, I deleted my whole post....

Why?

Because it's pointless debating with someone who cherry picks details they want to, and ignores those that don't back up their theory.

It's a fantasy requiring ideal situations that just aren't there in real life. Someone tried it once, and it didn't work, I hope it doesn't get tried again in my lifetime.


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 18:33 
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haha, I hope you are joking because that is what you are doing!
I am happy to go back to the details of any question and get BOTH side of the arguement, like I just did. You provided an example that you thought supported your aguement, and I countered by explaining what really happened and the causes.

It ok though, I'm putting in the effort for those that are truly interested in the causes of some of the things we observe in this world, not those who will never change their opinion, regardless of the argument.
Even if I perhaps influence one person to see things different from the mainstream view, it is worth it, and worth all the criticism from all the others.


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 19:09 
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So I take the only example there has ever been in history of libertarian ideals being put into place and tried out... Chile, where for 17 years they gave it a go, and I'm not going back through to list all the negative things that happened, it's all in my previous post...

but you accuse me of trying to find a negative example, that backed up my preconceived ideas? It's the only example there is... :dontknow:

You say it's all lies yet offer no proof to the contrary.. You compare economic policy to rape and murder???? :?

Pointless...


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 19:17 
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The example you used actually showed the opposite of what you wanted it to INSPITE of all the reasons which held it back. So your example actually reinforced my view.

1. We have never had a society without rape and murder so how do we know it is good?
2. We have never had a society with 100% free market so how do we know it is good?

1. We know rape and murder is unethical and we dont like our friends being killed.
2. We know govt regulation restricts the economy, makes people poorer and removes choice and freedom.

Just because we have never achieved something to its ultimate end doesn't mean it isnt worth pursuing does it? We can apply simple logic to all sorts of things in our life to work out where we want to go, even if we haven't been there before.

You put so much importance on this, I think it is because it is your easiest scapegoat.


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 19:24 
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It's called DENIAL i think SV.....

Quote:
The following quotes are from here : http://www.spectacle.org/0403/loo.html

Quote:
It is fair to examine the econometric analysis and historical record of the free-market capitalist ideas that would be in effect in a libertarian society. As the noted libertarian anarcho- capitalist David Friedman writes in his The Machinery of Freedom, "Some anarcho-capitalists do not [defend the historical record of capitalist societies]. They concede the justice of many of the usual attacks on 'capitalism,' but argue that everything would be different if we could get rid of government. That is a cop-out. Human beings and human societies are far too complicated for us to have confidence in a priori predictions about how institutions that have never been tried would work."(25) That is a fair statement, and so we will examine the econometrics of what would happen if the United States implemented libertarian economic policies.

If looking for real-world historical scenarios, Chile is a prime example of libertarian ideas at work. Though Chile did not get rid of restrictions on free markets, it is the closest example of such a state in modern history, and, by the standards of the David Friedman quote above, is certainly subject to examination. For this reason, I will be giving examples from Chilean history when discussing the impact of policies such as the repeal of the minimum wage. The economy of Chile from 1973 to 1990 was one in which a nearly unrestrained free market was turned loose with the full support of the government. The "Chicago Boys," a group of Chilean economists who received graduate training in the 1950s and 1960s at the University of Chicago under free- market advocates such as Milton Friedman and Arnold Harberger, were put in charge of reshaping the country's economic policies. Milton Friedman, Harberger, and Friedrich von Hayek all visited Santiago- Milton Friedman would even give a master lecture on television(26) as well as a one-hour course in economics to the dictator Auguste Pinochet(27). Joseph Collins, citing Shirley Christian, states "At least fifteen Chicago Boys would occupy top policy-making positions in the Pinochet military government."(28) Despite the authoritarian social policies of Auguste Pinochet, he gave free rein to the Chicago Boys to implement their economic ideas- possibly because he wanted to be remembered for "a historic act of national renewal, and he decided these bold technocrats held the key to a new, prosperous future that would forever distinguish his rule. In return, Pinochet was willing to guarantee protection from all political pressure."(29). This protection from political pressure would be necessary, as the economic measures proved unpopular enough that military intervention was needed to suppress the civil unrest the measures spawned(30). The Chicago Boys, working from libertarian economic ideals, promptly implemented policies which rolled back work laws, privatized health care, drastically reduced subsidized housing, and allowed wages to plunge. When we examine this historical example, we will find that the Chicago Boys' policies dramatically reduced the economic well- being and freedom of the poor.


And what happened?

Quote:
During Pinochet's regime in Chile, the lack of an hourly minimum wage(54) led to expectations that employees work long hours of unpaid overtime. When an employee complains about unpaid overtime, he could simply be fired(55) since high unemployment ensures that there will be no shortage of volunteers to take his place. This effective degrading of the hourly minimum wage was an effect of the free market reaching a balance between employment and wages in the absence of regulation; a regular practice of Chile's construction projects was the weekly queuing up of workers to underbid each other for the week's work(56). Even when the Chilean economy recovered, wages remained low as profits simply went into the pockets of employers(57). Indeed, the rapid growth years of 1986-1989 resulted in no increases in real wages(58), despite a study that estimated that the minimum wage could be increased by 50 percent without increasing unemployment significantly(59). Not surprisingly, the poor remained poor, and the percentage of families in poverty increased. Real wages in 1989 were only 90.8% of what they had been in 1970(60). The real minimum wage dropped 40% from 1981 to 1988(61). As Lois Oppenheim writes, "Does freedom of choice really exist when only a small group has the resources to exercise choice?"(62). The utter lack of ability to exercise a choice is not functionally better than not having that choice at all- and the libertarian policy, rather than increasing the freedom of the poor, drastically reduced it. The historical record of Chile shows that the poor became further impoverished, impeding their upward mobility and reducing their liberty, thereby making the libertarian argument based on moral grounds a failure.

Public/Subsidized Housing

The repeal of funding for public housing would also have adverse effects on the poor. Many low-wage employees can only find affordable housing via public housing(63) Though free- market advocates expect that private contractors could do more to provide decent inexpensive housing than the government, Chile provides an alarming counterexample. From 1974 until the end of Pinochet's reign, the private sector not only failed to shrink the housing deficit which existed in 1974, it actually fell behind as population grew(64). The houses of the poblaciones, or shantytowns, often contained three to five families. As Collins writes, "The percentage of Chileans without adequate housing increased from 27 percent in 1972 to 40 percent in 1988, even though according to neo-liberal social dogma the private construction industry combined with supplemental vouchers for low-income households would solve the housing problem."(65). Imagine how much worse the problem would be if the limited government support of the vouchers did not exist.


Quote:
So what happened in Chile as regulations and wage laws were repealed or loosened? Unemployment, which averaged around 6 percent in the 1960s(67) and dropped to around 5 percent in 1973 before Pinochet took over, averaged 20 percent from 1974 to 1987, peaked at 35 percent in 1982, and even when official unemployment numbers dropped, it was because working one day a week was enough to be considered not unemployed(68). It also spawned other problems for the now unemployed or underemployed, such as alcoholism and depression(69).


Quote:
A common libertarian objection to charges that the repeal of welfare would hurt the poor is that the rich will donate more money to private charities, which in turn would be more efficient than the government. The combination of private charity, churches, communities, and family would be able to "bridge the gap" for those who do not earn enough to support themselves. Clearly, this did not happen in Chile as governmental spending on the poor dropped even as the rich got richer. Malnourishment increased(72), and the number of families which could not afford a basic "basket" of necessary goods doubled in the twenty years leading up to 1989. By that point, fewer than half the families in Santiago could afford that basic basket(73).


Quote:
During the Pinochet regime, Chile sharply reduced state contributions to health services, greatly increased privatization in health care, and removed regulations. This led to less preventive care which in turn led to a greater increase in health emergencies, deterioration in the quality of hospital equipment, hospital overcrowding(81), and the danger of medical quackery(82).


Quote:
When Chile largely privatized its Social Security, Chileans often operated from misinformation or outright lack of information(86). Inflation further degraded the benefits, and by 1987, Chilean labor economist Jaime Ruiz-Tagle estimated that only 22 percent of Chilean workers made a salary that might allow them to retire with more than minimum benefits(87).


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 19:29 
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The leader Prior to Pinnochete was Salvador Allende and his corrupt, illegal and unconstitutional socialist government. There was extremely high inflation. (140% in 1972) – NOT libertarian

If a free market took place after a socialist or otherwise controlled economy it is not expected that instantaneously everything would be perfect and it is absurd to think so. There WOULD be bankruptcies, economic turmoil and changes in the value of the currency.
If the United States suddenly became a free market economy then there would be many bankruptcies. The US Postal Service would certainly go bankrupt (it nearly is already) and almost every other company/organisation that is supported by the government.
These bankruptcies and the associated suffering would be totally necessary to rectify the mal-investment that the government created.
This will allow capital to go where it is needed more (more profitable)
To claim that the free market does not work because of short term economic downturn and govt supported industries go bankrupt is a strawman.
Wages did go down, however this is the logical conclusion when Allende had unsustainable minimum wage laws

Using economic growth as we do to to measure the “health” of an economy also has its flaws.
REAL growth of an economy is actually quite slow, growth brought about by deficit spending ALWAYS results in a boom, and booms ALWAYS bust and create recession/depression for the simple reason that the growth is not real growth

Also just knowing economic growth and wages is not enough to indicate the health of an economy. The cost of living is the other necessary factor. If wages go down 25% and the cost of living goes down 35% then everyone is better off (richer). In fact if free market money were allowed to prevail (preventing increases in the money supply) then wages would go down, and so would the cost of living as the value of the currency actually increases (very mild deflation) This is a result of more goods and services (as economy grows) chasing the same amount of money.

Other Reasons the Chilean economy did not do as well as it could have.
Worker intimidation is not a free market policy
Price fixing the currency is also not free market policy, neither is land confiscation.
Any economic reform forced upon the populace by force can also not be called a free market policy

The ONLY way to recover from a depression is to repudiate the debt. This will result in bankruptcies and short term economic hardship.


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 20:11 
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your just making most of that up?
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The leader Prior to Pinnochete was Salvador Allende and his corrupt, illegal and unconstitutional socialist government. There was extremely high inflation. (140% in 1972) – NOT libertarian
But that inflation only went up dramatically for 1-2 years before hand, it's not like it was up for decades..
Quote:
If a free market took place after a socialist or otherwise controlled economy it is not expected that instantaneously everything would be perfect and it is absurd to think so. There WOULD be bankruptcies, economic turmoil and changes in the value of the currency.
If the United States suddenly became a free market economy then there would be many bankruptcies. The US Postal Service would certainly go bankrupt (it nearly is already) and almost every other company/organisation that is supported by the government.
These bankruptcies and the associated suffering would be totally necessary to rectify the mal-investment that the government created.
This will allow capital to go where it is needed more (more profitable)
To claim that the free market does not work because of short term economic downturn and govt supported industries go bankrupt is a strawman.
Wages did go down, however this is the logical conclusion when Allende had unsustainable minimum wage laws


SO it was all the problems they inherited... That would be like Julia saying everything is John Howards fault for what has happened up till now, and for the next 7 years as well.. Thats just excuses isn;t it...?
Quote:

Using economic growth as we do to to measure the “health” of an economy also has its flaws.
REAL growth of an economy is actually quite slow, growth brought about by deficit spending ALWAYS results in a boom, and booms ALWAYS bust and create recession/depression for the simple reason that the growth is not real growth


Yes, using economic growth to measure the health of a COUNTRY has it's flaws.. You can have a healthy economy yet major social issues, economic growth and economic success can not be the sole indicator of the prosperity of a country


Quote:

Also just knowing economic growth and wages is not enough to indicate the health of an economy. The cost of living is the other necessary factor. If wages go down 25% and the cost of living goes down 35% then everyone is better off (richer). In fact if free market money were allowed to prevail (preventing increases in the money supply) then wages would go down, and so would the cost of living as the value of the currency actually increases (very mild deflation) This is a result of more goods and services (as economy grows) chasing the same amount of money.
So what was the cost of living then? you are making things up... "What if's" don't count as an argument.

Quote:
Other Reasons the Chilean economy did not do as well as it could have.
Worker intimidation is not a free market policy
Price fixing the currency is also not free market policy, neither is land confiscation.
Any economic reform forced upon the populace by force can also not be called a free market policy


What worker intimidation happened? They didn't do what? Price fixing isn't allowed, land acquisitions aren't allowed? Is that what happened, do you have links to facts? And under what rules are you going by here? You argue specifics saying that you can't have this and you can't have that otherwise it's not pure, so it doesn;t count, yet in the same post you say, but you have to try and nothings perfect.. So they tried and yes it wasn't perfect, but as you point out, it never will be, but it still didn't work... :dontknow:

Quote:
The ONLY way to recover from a depression is to repudiate the debt. This will result in bankruptcies and short term economic hardship.

They had 17 years how long do you keep blaming the past.... Don;t worry Julia, it's all John Howards fault, you still have another 7 years to keep blaming him. :dontknow:

Quote:
Using economic growth as we do to to measure the “health” of an economy also has its flaws.REAL growth of an economy is actually quite slow, growth brought about by deficit spending ALWAYS results in a boom, and booms ALWAYS bust and create recession/depression for the simple reason that the growth is not real growth

Ummm, whats the point here?
Quote:
Also just knowing economic growth and wages is not enough to indicate the health of an economy. The cost of living is the other necessary factor. If wages go down 25% and the cost of living goes down 35% then everyone is better off (richer). In fact if free market money were allowed to prevail (preventing increases in the money supply) then wages would go down, and so would the cost of living as the value of the currency actually increases (very mild deflation) This is a result of more goods and services (as economy grows) chasing the same amount of money.

SO what was the cost of living? Your argument says that everything is ok, but you haven't referenced any stats?

Your saying that if everything works, everything will be great... Yes it would, but the reality is a little different, ... the info I found on costs of living?

"As the earnings from a full-time minimum wage job fail to cover the full cost of living for a single adult(43)- much less a family"
Quote:
Other Reasons the Chilean economy did not do as well as it could have.
Worker intimidation is not a free market policy
Price fixing the currency is also not free market policy, neither is land confiscation.
Any economic reform forced upon the populace by force can also not be called a free market policy


Umm once again, are you just making this up??? Have you got some info?

And really thats the ultimate out isn;t it?

Quote:
Any economic reform forced upon the populace by force can also not be called a free market policy
Well that is an "out" for every single economic reform ever implemented in the history of the world... No economic reform is ever going to have 100% support, and if you want to follow that line of debate, Libertarianism is a rather extreme political philosophy followed by a very small minority, so therefore can never work by it's own definition, because you will never have a whole population agree to it by free will...


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 21:34 
And by your own definitions Superveg... there has never been a "free market".... any where... ever....

And you seriously believe that those with vested interests, hands on the reins of power... both government and finance....

Will ever allow it to pass..... or are you arguing that it could occur... if, and only if.... the people were to oust those same interests... presumably by force....

Sounds more "socialist"... than libertarian to me... and history tells us that throwing one lot out... whether by force or ballot... just replaces them with another lot that are.. or become... the same...


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 21:39 
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Libertarianism is utopianism, from this seat it sounds much like a dystopian fantasy.

Somalia is also a free market, or is that just a real-world example of anarchy, I have trouble distinguishing between them.

Do libertarianism and anarchy always go together, i.e. no one is steering the bus right (except for the God of the Invisible Hand I suppose)?


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PostPosted: Jul 2nd, '12, 23:45 
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SuperVeg wrote:
Rupert from what I can gather you are referring to the US and Europe ?
All these countries ............................

Europe is not one country, even within EU (member states) there are countries, that is not part of the monetary union(Euro).

SuperVeg wrote:
the US and Europe ?
All these countries are going bankrupt because the government is spending more money that it earns (what govt doesnt?)


Norway does not and havent done that for decades.
But then again, iff Financial institutions like banks, insurance, etc. need a bail out, the government take over a part of the company.Equal to the the value of the investment, and they hold does shares until the value of the shares are wortht selling again.

cheers


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PostPosted: Jul 3rd, '12, 02:10 
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earthbound wrote:
scotty435 wrote:
Seems odd that insurance came about because people recognized that they couldn't individually pay for certain things but as a group they could spread the risk.


Or did it come about more because someone saw an opportunity to make money...


Probably both, since there would be no incentive to start an insurance company or government insurance without some reward and there would be no reason to pay for insurance if there was no benefit to having it. Of course this assumes that people aren't idiots which is a bit of a stretch :think:


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PostPosted: Jul 3rd, '12, 03:33 
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Not gonna say much about this, except everyone should become familiar with UN aganda 21. When Amish farmers can be regulated from trading their goods amongst themselves and farmers markets be shut down unless they have tracking numbers and when you can be zoned to where you cannot grow food in your community...then maybe we should pay attention to what is being done at these summits.


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PostPosted: Jul 3rd, '12, 04:07 
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That's probably not conspiracy, just good old fashioned agri-lobbying.


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PostPosted: Jul 3rd, '12, 04:37 
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Government even in its purest form is evil, :evil: albeit a necessary evil.

Thomas Paine (common sense – 1776) :notworthy:

I am extremely conservative and like a lot of the libertarians’ views on things, however libertarians have A LOT wrong :support: . I strongly believe in small government. Taxes are necessary for that government to run. I believe the only tax that should be allowed would be sales tax. Once someone has bought something including land it should be theirs. I believe the only thing National Government should have control over is interstate highways, the borders including tariffs, the national sales tax, one national police force and I repeat ONLY one such as the FBI, the Supreme Court, and the military. I feel that the rest of authority should fall on local government such as state, county, and city. The only tax local government could add would be more sales tax. All socialist programs should be trashed. Social security, food stamps, Medicare, assisted government housing; all these programs do is create a dependence on government with weak minded and lazy constituents. I don’t believe the government should be giving bail outs or subsidizing anyone or anything. Also, since there is no income tax there will be no reason for the IRS. I believe the monetary system should be locked back in on the gold standard. As far as the government affecting the economy, the only power they should have would be minimum wage (state government) and tariffs (federal government). All in all, government is necessary and so is free trade market.


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