Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Im with Arbe on this one.

Cant say I ever get a batch of fish "expecting" to loose any.

There will be cases where you may loose some for various reasons but I dont think it should be expected. You cant prevent bad batches but maybe thats a choice of unreliable supplier

The only times I have lost fish is because of my own stuff ups or power outage...which if I had a back up system at that time I would have been fine... so again my own stuff up.

The only time I would say that a few deaths are "expected" is in transit over long distances. OBO moves fish 700km to get them to Kalgoorlie. His last batch he didnt loose one.... goes to show with the right systems in place that can be done without fatalities aswell.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you all that trail and error with these animals is not the way to go. I am still soaking up all info regarding the fish before adding them. I am however bound to be learning also by doing.

And as everybody here seems to admit, fish something do die "before their time". Hence by setting up a system one could expect fatalities.

But, since I do not have any fish in my system, I must admit that I do not have any experience .

It's very interesting and informative to follow the discussion in this thread - thank you for all the input regarding this important topic

I accept that there is the risk in loosing fish, although i dont accept that i will loose fish. I spend alot of time reading about ways to care for them and i think that should see them all grow up to see the inside of my belly

I also spend a fair amount of time trying to make a naturalish kind of environment for my aquarium, which is still an AP setup. I am trying to get all live plants and hides etc for the fish. Although they wont be eaten It all depends on the final goal of it. Not everyone wants to eat their fish.

An article from the RSPCA website regarding whether fish feel pain is included below. The book refered to in the article below is an interesting read. While you may not agree with what it says I guarantee you will not look at your fish in the same way again.


Do fish feel pain?
Scientific evidence that fish are sentient animals capable of experiencing pain and suffering has been building for some years. It has now reached a point where the sentience of fish is acknowledged and recognised by leading scientists across the world.

If we accept that fish are sentient and can experience pain, then we have an ethical obligation to treat fish humanely and avoid practices that have the potential to cause them pain, injury or suffering. This has significant implications for the treatment of fish in commercial fisheries, aquaculture (fish farming) and in recreational fishing. Given the number of animals involved, the impact of current fish harvesting and capture methods on the welfare of fish is enormous.

A number of strategies are needed to address this problem, including:

reducing the number of fish caught
reducing the suffering of fish during capture
using humane killing techniques as soon as possible after landing fish
banning the use of live bait.

If you want to read more about what science can tell us about fish behaiviour and sentience, we recommend the book Do fish feel pain? by fish biologist Victoria Braithwaite, published in 2010 by Oxford University Press.

For more information on ways to improve the welfare of commercially harvested fish, you can visit the fishcount.org.uk website.

Or for another perspective, this time from the AAWS (Australian Animal Welfare Stategy).

Over the last decade, there has been an increasing national and international interest in the welfare of aquatic animals. Do fish feel pain and if they do, how does this affect their productivity? The AAWS Aquatic Animals Working Group’s first priority has been to provide industry and recreational fishers with a set of scientifically-backed welfare guidelines.

The Aquatic Animal Welfare Guidelines have drawn specific attention to pain receptor studies in fish. Currently science cannot definitively say if fish feel pain. One argument suggests if fish are to experience pain in a similar way to humans they would require higher conscious processing, therefore this level of pain perception is unlikely. However alternative behavioural studies have demonstrated behavioural changes when fish are exposed to aversive stimuli.

While the jury might be out on whether fish feel pain, stress in fish has been linked to increased susceptibility to disease, repressed growth rates and poor eating quality. Therefore the adoption of recommended welfare practices, like reducing crowding pre-harvest, may produce healthier and tastier fish. The adoption of the working group’s welfare guidelines may help the seafood sector maintain existing markets and create access to new ones as consumers take increasing interest in how their food is produced.

Thanks for that info, Marc de Woose. I doubt if anyone who has gaffed a fished boatside would believe that fish don't feel pain, even if it isn't exactly the same as we feel it. Sometimes the gaffed fish's sudden resurgence of energy when it feels the gaff penetrate its flesh will win its freedom. I was actually pulled off rocks and into exmouth Gulf by a cobia (Rachycentron canadum) that I thought was spent when I gaffed it after a half hour battle.
As far as losing fish in AP systems is concerned, ie the fish dying prematurely, another factor to consider is the age of the fish. I assume that the natural mortality rate of younger, smaller fish is higher than older, more developed fish as nature weeds out the less robust specimens. It stands to reason that if you introduced 100 small fry to your AP system then, statistically, you should expect more losses than if you introduced older fish. For example, planning figures for a particular species may be 90/100 fry can be expected to survive to harvest size, 95/100 fingerlings expected to survive, 99/100 larger specimens (what is after fingerling?) expected to end up on your dinner plate.
Planning figures such as these can be derived from statistics, just as they are for insurance purposes. When applied to human life expectancy, actuary tables are used and these show, for instance, that a 60 year old has a much greater likelihood of reaching 80 years of age than does a 10 year old. Similarly, a two year old (~fingerling) has more chance of reaching 15 years old (~plate size) than does a one month old baby (~fry). In this regard I don't think that fish are all that different to us.

I can tell you first hand that my fish are in a better environment than they came from. I pulled them out of the Salton Sea, walking amongst dead tilapia jerky. Quite a few fish deaths there. Did I lose any along the way? There were about 10 dead fry. I'm not sure if they were live when I caught them, and the 100+ that did live seem to dig their new diggs.

And this is why I can't understand the idea/concept/appealing side of recreational catch and release fishing (which is, of course, really popular over here).
And catch and releasers around here (see: Youtube comments) are always jumping down tradional fishing's throat about being evil (one particularily hateful set of comments I had seen under a "bowfishing" video from a local lake)

Isn't catch and release WORSE? Because the pain, suffering and inevitable rates of morbidity and mortality
Are inflicted simply for human pleasure?
Go get another hobby fgs

I try not to overthink food

1. If it's not endangered, it's ok. If it is eat something else ( eg whales, tuna, shark, swordfish off the menu
2. Is It damaging unnecessarily ecosystems? If so, eat sonething else or find another way to get it ( vannamei prawns off the menu)
3. Is it good for my health, if not replace it ( cage eggs, battery hen, hormone fed beef)
4. Can we reduce suffering if necessary? I don't mind eating things live at all, whole, it's natural. But dismembering things alive just isn't necessary

That'll do
Why torture yourself anymore?
We are not plants, we must kill to eat.

Imagine the pain and suffering... as you rip the roots of a plant out of the ground... leave it suffocating to death on the bench for a few hours... then slash it with repeatitive strokes of a knife... death by a thousand cuts...

Except they don't have a nervous system

But I agree
Life is life

I'd consider it worse to cut a tree than shoot a deer
So much more relies on that tree
And it took much longer to assemble

Yep, but apparantly they talk, listen and communicate to one another...

http://www.medicaldaily.com/news/201206 ... rvival.htm

Imagine the terrifying screams that might be emanating from the vege patch every time you approach with a knife...

Almost enough to make a vegetarian turn meat eater...

That is what I actually meant....... can't understand if random post for catch&releasers or directed to me...

And can't stand people defending it comparing it to regular fishing by telling someone how cruel they were to kill that fish and eat it...

Don't stress.
I approve of both

But i think catch releasers are lying to themselves if they claim moral superiority
It's by far less ethical than eating your catch

If they really loved fish they'd go diving or something