Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

http://news.discovery.com/animals/most- ... 10923.html
http://news.discovery.com/animals/fish- ... n-too.html

cheers

Some fish, especially the bigger cichlids and predators, do recognize the difference between familiar and non-familiar items. In my 125G community tank, the barbs and tetras rush to front and center anytime anyine approaches or puts anything on top of the tank. The ghost knives and kribensis, however, only come up to feed if I show up. Oscars are famously smart fish, and highly interactive.
As for the betta in a bowl, in the wild they are subjected to dry seasons where they have to jump from puddle to puddle in water full of mud. This obviously isn't the best condition for them and they spawn when the rainy season comes, but they do survive. They along with other fish in their family, have a labyrinth organ and can breath oxygen from the surface, so they don't need large volumes of well-oxygenated water to "breathe". In fact, when put into a larger tank, bettas need a small retreat at the water's surface to thrive, because they feel more secure in a small place and their health will reflect it.
This does not apply for goldfish or any other fish for that matter. Only betts thrive in such a small volume.

I can understand no one who has kept fish thinking that they have no mermory or no intelligence but anyone who has kept fish should know that they can learn and be trained and we have had plenty of examples on this thread.

As for pain even bacteria have been demonstrated to "feel" pain or at least respond to stimulus that has an adverse reaction on their health. I can not imagine how anyone could think that a higher order animal like a fish would not feel pain. At its most basic level pain is crucial for animals to survive. If we are not hurt by things in our environment how do we learn to avoid. Fish can certainly learn how else do you explain on demand fish feeders working if the fish cant learn how to operate them.

I am concerned that mammalian or avian animal welfare standards are applied to other animals without serious thought. I could not be more against battery hen raising because it quickly becomes apparent that the hens health and mental state is adversely effected by the density at which they are kept. Similarly I think that pig pen farming is equally abhorrent. The same can not be said for fish as some species show improved health when kept at higher densities.

In any case the video in the second link that Soltun posted shows just how uncaring humans can be. Personally I find treating any animal like that sickening.

The goldfish in a bowl is just as cruel, yes...which makes the example very poor justification for the "betta-vase".

Betta's are known to be able to survive in very small amounts of water, when necessary, such as during periods of low rain or drought. And there is a difference between "survive" and "thrive". They are most commonly found in slow moving rivers though, with plenty of space for a happy life. The general pet store spiel that "they are happy in this little 3 inch cube, because that's how they live" is a disgusting lie that is trotted out to make a sale. This mantra is usually followed by "you don't even need to change their water". It's really a disgrace and I would hope that anyone with an affiliation with fish or aquarium keeping of any sort (that wasn't only into it for the money factor) would realise just what these poor creatures are subjected to. The reason that the "Betta-vase" is cruel, is because Bettas are surface breathers...where is this fish able to make it to the surface to breath? How rich in DO do you think this vase is (and please don't say the roots give oxygen because they do not)? Ammonia levels? Frequency of water changes?? Like any fish, Bettas need a tank with plenty of space and adequate filtration and tank maintenance. As do goldfish.

I'm sorry to go off and hijack, but I really want of for people to become a little more educated about the living conditions of these fish. And it is up to you all, myself and anyone else that cares for fish (or any animal) to start doing something about it, educating ourselves, our friends, friends of friends etc...

/rant



Edit:


Just read this...dude, I don't know you and I don't want to turn this forum into a bad place with negative fighting or whatever, but that is the saddest, most ignorant thing I have ever read. Fish may be small, but their intelligence levels and perception of their surroundings or the situation they are in, pain etc is as real as yours or mine... An example of this is one day while feeding blood worms to my Betta's using tweezers (yes, I have bred and kept these great fish), I was shocked that when each fish came to take a worm from the tweezers at the surface, they suddenly bolted into hiding as if shot. Took me a minute to work it out, but I finally found that the tank filter had shorted out and the whole tank was "live". As the fish took a bite of worm, the circuit between the floor, myself, the tweezers and fish in water was completed. The shock they felt was very real (and very lucky I wasn't also zapped, lol!)

I hear you Ghengis but I dont think any of us want to treat any fish poorly....but the reality is that we are all taking fish out of there normal habitat and putting them in a bowl.

A goldfish in a bowl is the same as a trout in a IBC.

Its not an ideal way for a fish to live but if water quality is controlled whether it be through water changes, stock levels or filtration well we are all doing the humane thing.

There a lot of animals/creatures/pets we keep out of there normal/desired habitat.

I think there is also a difference between keeping an animal for food compared to keeping an animal for pleasure. We need food so while we try to minimize the distress to our livestock there is a certain level of cruelty that is unavoidable. After all in the end we do kill them. Animals kept for pleasure are another matter entirely and cruelty in their keeping should not be tolerated.

That is my opinion anyway.

pain is a sensory perception, and yes, everything living is capable of feeling pain, it's basic for survival. im talking emotions. the transfer of human traits to animals based on animal reactions.

yes, fish can be trained. a fish will learn a maze just as it would learn to dodge and weave around root and rock structures under water... but as for complex problem solving, cause and effect, and emotion... animals are lacking. yes, you can stress fish, stress is a trait that all animals have, it's linked to the pain sensory system... anything that threatens the life of an animal is all pain sensory... but as for being put into a bowl longing for a bigger world... doesn't happen...

even higher animals like dogs simply cannot comprehend cause and effect without being reinforced with an example of physical pain... we can train our dogs to not go into the road, even though the dog has no clue as to why he's not allowed into the road. we as the owners know they could get hit, but all the dog knows is he gets yelled at for getting too close...

sadness, preference, excitement... fish don't feel these. a fish can learn that it's feeding time by recognizing it's owner just the same as they know it's feeding time when a bug lands in the water... it's a learned behavior.

what we see as emotions from animals are either misinterpreted instincts, or a learned behavior. do animals do well penned up in large groups? no, that's not how they evolved. do they show signs of physical stress? yes, because they're not supposed to be that grouped together. emotional stress? in most cases no... now there are parrots that will pluck out all of their feathers when they get stressed... but to consider that self destructive behavior is a bit of a reach...

i mean really... i have a dog... and i would like to think that he feels guilty after he chews one of my shoes up... but really he's just too afraid to move because i yelled at him... it's not guilt, even though it could be interpreted as guilt... it's the fear of being yelled at that keeps him in his oversized chair...

Lol, thread is well and truly derailed...might as well keep chugging!

Damon, you do make a good point. I see that essentially you are saying if it doesn't know any better, how can it desire something better? And you are right, it's not until someone walks into a pet store and takes a Betta from its dirty little 3-inch cube (or jelly cup, as I have seen them displayed in!) and places it into a 2ftx1ft tank, that it suddenly wakes up and swims all over the place, seemingly much happier.

But to me, that is still not justification for keeping something in such confined quarters. I do believe fish get bored if they can't excercise. I believe a fish's health also suffers, if it must sit in one spot every day, literally hanging there. To me, all fish are genetically wired to swim free and happily, and whilst a Betta might have been bred and raised in a teacup, I really don't believe it will ever truly thrive in such an environment, whether it knows or longs for better or not.

Bringing the topic back to "that" vase though...as I said in previous post, there is no way that fish could breath at the surface, as is a Betta's habit. Without proper space for gaseous transfer, the water will carry zero oxygen and ammonia levels would be astronomical. I hate to guess how long that fish has been in that vase and how long before it finally died. This is the crux of this discussion. Such a display is just that, a display. It is meant to attract conversation on the coffee table. There is little to no regard for the well being of the animal contained within, except the inconvenience caused when it must be removed and flushed down the toilet after a slow death by suffocation and toxification.

Its possible it was set up like that for the photo only, I mean....feeding would prove to be difficult too.

Possible, but I have seen these in stores. All death stares at shop owner were summarily ignored, lol.

I would disagree with your conclusions because the scientific literature abounds with many animals that are capable of complex problem solving. My specialty was spider behaviour and I can assure you that there are a number of species that have demonstrated the ability to solve complex problems. Emotion is a different game but there have been a number of studies of cephalapods (squid, octopus, etc.), cetacea (whales, dolphins, etc), birds, dogs, cats, primates among others were the researches concluded that the behaviours exhibited by these animals had such similarity to emotions as to be indistinguishable from them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... water.html

cheers

Methinks that little tank has definitely been set up for the photo. And if not, it would need multiple water changes every day.

Nah, pretty sure it's option "A"...someone has glued this thing together, thrown some moss and gravel in with a couple juvenile fish and snapped away with the camera. Simply not a viable system, by any stretch.

I have to agree there Stuart, If it is observationally indistinguishable from emotion then it might as well be emotion. Ya know, to a large extent, emotions are learned too, either that or triggered by chemicals in the body. We are animals too and just because we evolved fast enough to destroy the planet doesn't necessarily mean we are better than other animals.