Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Hi all
Just continuing from progress from previous thread titled how much feed to feed trout fingerlings
Will update water figures here soon thanks

I thought this might be usefull for people to view on this post,valuable knowledge.
Hope that's ok bunson and others.thanks



From bunson(xtreme contributer)

Most fish can survive for a week or so without food, but will quickly die from *:
overfeeding,
excessive ammonia levels vs pH and temperature, or
nitrite shock.

Ammonia
With your system monitoring, be safer and always consider the worst case; your pH is 8.0, your ammonia is 1.5 and you're still on the limits of ammonia toxicity. You MUST measure your water temperature and check your position versus THE chart! (Print and laminate this chart and keep it with your test kit!)



The chart does not take into account all factors, so should be used as a general guide to ammonia toxicity levels; it seems you've been sailing very close to the wind and probably already exceeded the charted thresholds, but it's always better to be safe than sorry.

On April 16 your ammonia level was at 1, then on April 17 it was 2 (only today falling to 1.5). Had you been surreptitiously feeding the fish? If not, what do you think caused the ammonia to rise on 17/18 April when you weren't not supposed to be adding anything to the system and continuing to exchange your pond water? (The answer might have to do with stocking density in an immature system? Or, were there other factors that we did not see from this vantage?)

Nitrites
There isn't a definite toxic level of which I am aware, but "too much" will kill fish so we try to keep the nitrites as low as possible. Some people mitigate against nitrite distress by adding salt, but "too much" salt will also kill freshwater fish! Consider slowly adding salt up to 3ppt (up to 3kg of pool salt per 1000L of water, added over a few days) to alleviate nitrite distress now, and maintaining about 1ppt (1kg of pool salt per 1000L of water) for general fish health later (unless you're growing strawberries which HATE salt, but for now the welfare of the fish has priority over the plant welfare).

Nitrates
Fish will survive surprisingly high nitrate levels, someone once mentioned to me their highest was in excess of 500ppm as tested through a laboratory, without any fish deaths. The levels detectable using the standard water test kits would generally be considered safe for fish in most circumstances. "Excessive" nitrates can cause other adverse reactions such as algal blooms, so if your nitrates are "high" simply add more plants.

pH
Each system is different and will find their own equilibrium point, however, before that, when a system is cycling for the first couple of times there might be a sudden but dramatic drop or spike in pH. As your pH is already caustic I'd be preparing to buffer against a sudden drop in pH to the acidic side of neutral. Add a cup of shell grits to the system (I have mine in the FT, bit some prefer to scatter it in their GB, I don't think it makes much difference?) If the water is acidic the shells will dissolve; if the water is caustic they wont dissolve hence their use as a buffer. (Also, shells are mainly calcium which is an essential element for plant nutrition so adding them to your system will aid healthy plant growth anyway.)

For now
An old saying, "Dilution is the pollution solution!"

We're trying to take control of the ammonia and nitrite levels: As has already been mentioned in this thread, keep replacing about 1/3 of the water per day (slowly over the day) with clean, fresh, degassed water of very similar pH and temperature to avoid shocking the fish, avoid feeding or adding any more nutrient to the system until the beneficial bacteria have fully colonised and are able to 'eat' all the available ammonia and nitrites. For the fact the ammonia levels are dropping whilst the nitrites and nitrate levels are increasing means there are some beneficial bacteria in your system, but probably not enough yet to deal with the loads you have on them. You need to allow the little bacteria critters to complete the work you have already given them, and to increase their populations. Have patience, and what ever you do or what ever changes you make, do it slowly. Any rapid changes might have dire consequences for the stability of the entire system.

Looking ahead
When you get to zero ammonia, zero nitrites with a smattering of nitrates, don't go silly and feed the fish a bucket load of food; give them a pinch to eat and monitor your water closely for the next 24 hours. (With your fish stock density you might not ever get zero ammonia because the fish are still respiring and discharging wastes, even without feeding. If you chart your progress you might discover your 'zero' ammonia level is 0.10, 0.25 or something other than zero.) After 24 hours, if your levels are again "zero", 0 and 0+, then you can feed the fish again, maybe a little more than last time, then monitor the water again. If there is "excess" ammonia present, make a very careful decision about feeding the fish.

When your system can handle the ammonia produced as a result of one full feeding per day, you can try two smaller feedings per day and increasing the feeding size gradually until your system can handle two full feeds per day, then three smaller feedings etc. Some people might prefer instead to start with three or four very small feedings per day and very slowly increasing the amount of food at each feeding, monitoring all aspects very closely. Each way has its merits.

I'd still be looking to 'thin the herd' and reducing the stocking density until the system is more mature. Maybe there are other members near you with spare capacity who could agist or buy some of your fish? No one learns to walk with a marathon, start small and be safe.


$0.02c


Scott

* From practical experience, fish also die quickly from:
chloromine and/or excessive exposure to chlorinated tap water (Father-in-Law left the mains water hose running into the FT)
lack of water / exposure to "too much" air (piping failure pumped all the water out of FT)
next door neighbour herbicides / chemicals (lack of cover and educating neighbours about spray-drift)
electric shock (faulty pump)
crows pinching fish out of FT (even through 25mm mesh)
ike jime (a spike through the brain at harvest time!)

Ok,looking ok I think
Ph is still 7.8-8.0
Ammonia dropped to .50ppm
Nitrites 4.0ppm
Nitrates 9.0ppm
I changed some more pond water over yesterday and I think the levels are starting to get better now,would it be ok to give fish small feed tonight if ammonia stays the same or drops more.
Thanks guys

Not with nitrites of 4 no dont feed. Also salt your system to 1ppt to help with nitrite toxicity

firey what is your pond readings, PH, AMM, Nitrite and nitrates?

I've got no problems with you copying my post here I'm glad you found the post helpful.

[I was in the process of typing this post when you posted, so I have had to retype!]

Have you bought a thermometer yet? Ammonia toxicity is a function of pH AND temperature; so knowing only two parts of three will not give you reasonable answers. I have a max/min thermometer ($10 from "B") but there are some excellent digital devices out there too for a few more $, and also some more basic ones for a few less $.

It's good to see the ammonia coming down. (Will it get to zero, or will there be a residual amount? Only monitoring over the next couple of days/will tell.)

With the nitrites still on the "high" side, I'd avoid feeding and continue slowly diluting the system water (looking to replace 1/3 of the water per day, slowly over the day). I'd definitely be considering adding some salt, at least 1ppt but up to 3ppt.

One day you'll learn (and you'll learn this the hard way, like most of us have) the best thing to do to an AP system is nothing! At this particular time, you need to make small changes to the water and consider adding salt, but other than that, the less you do the sooner the system will stabilise. AP is a great hobby for tinkerers; you can get out there and constantly change things, tinker with feeding times and amounts, pump flow rates and drain times, pipe configuration, air blowers etc, but IMHO and from practical experience, AP systems are most productive when we remove the thing which causes most destabilising changes, US! Stop playing with things! Other than making the required slow changes by adding a little bit of salt and some more water, I know it's hard but my advice is to walk away and leave the system to get on with finding its equilibrium levels, cycling and stabilising.

At the end of this first couple of weeks, I hope that you (and others) have learned why it's "easier" to fishlessly cycle a system? (Less stress on the fish and on you! Don't worry though, most of us have tried it, some have failed; more will try in the future and fail.)

There's also a lesson in stocking densities to be learned as well, but that topic has been covered already. (Again, many have pushed the envelope and it resulted in stress and premature fish deaths, many more will try in the future and fail.)



Scott

BTW: I haven't got any of Murray Hallam's books or DVD's but this is not the first time I have heard of people (what I now consider) pushing the limits after reading/viewing some of his work; in terms of fish density and timing, I am wondering if Murray might not have explained the circumstances clearly enough, might have some erroneous/incomplete information, or maybe provides information subject to interpretation? All the information I have comes from practical experiment and experience, from this forum and chatting with other AP'ers (including, for special mention, Faye and the excellent staff at BYAP)

I have just added 1ppm salt to my fish tank and introduced my hd air pump which is blowing in bucket loads of extra air through the air stones.fish look happy enough swimming around in tank, so I guess thats a good sign.
Will keep an eye on nitrites level now also seen that is increasing.will check the ammonia and nitrates levels in pond,the ph was about 7.6.
just a quick question
What can you safely use to kill or repel the white cabbage moth from eating my cabbages and broccoli.

ppm or ppt?

1ppt is roughly equivalent to 1kilogram of salt per 1000L of water.


Unfortunately, not a lot!

Attract ladybirds, lacewings and native wasps to the garden with flowering plants. Sunflowers are useful, as are carrots (planted in dirt around the AP system, grown for their flower not the edible root so let them bolt). These also look good!

Some native birds will feed on the white moths, so attract them to your garden with a bird-feeder with just a little bit of feed in it (you're wanting to attract the birds, not fill their bellies with grain as they're supposed to be eating the moths)

Some people swear by adding egg-shells and other small white objects to fool the moths the area is already infested with moths, although this never worked for us.

Mosquito netting can be useful to prevent the moths from laying their eggs; but if they have already laid their eggs then the netting gets in the way of accessing the leaves to squash the larvae.

If you already have the larvae, then you could use a (certified organic?) product such as Yates Dipel. Its a powder you sprinkle on the leaves to defeat sucking/chewing bugs, but it washes off in the rain and has to be reapplied often anyway.

DO NOT USE ANY OIL BASED PRODUCTS! They are all bad for the fish! This include the "white oil" products, homemade or commercial.

You could try using a garlic and chilli spray (no oil or detergent) and apply twice daily, and after rain. Blitz a few chillis and a bulb of garlic in a food processor until very fine. Top up with hot (not boiling) water and allow to steep overnight. Strain through muslin cloth into a spray pack and go for it.

If your plants are healthy and plentiful, then they should be able to fight off most insects and diseases without intervention from us; only some times do we need to intervene in natural processes.



Scott

Ok thanks heaps,yes I did mean ppt as I put in 1kg into 1000lts thanks again

Dipel.... a bacteria... organically approved... perfectly fish safe...

You'll find it at Bunnings... and other places...

And a note for the above regarding "nitrites" ... salting to 1ppt is all that is required... and shouldn't affect plants at all... even strawberries...

Hi all
Just a quick update,all is looking ok so far.my water figures are:
Ph.still 7.8-8.0
Ammonia.0.25ppm
Nitrites 2.0ppm
Nitrates 10ppm
All looks like it is cycling a lot better now.i have just started light feeds for trout morning and night just to see what ammonia levels do.
I have added 1kg of salt to my 1000lt FT to help the fish with slightly high nitrite levels,just wondering how often do I need to add this salt or does it stay in the water for some time.
Thanks everybody for your help,I will keep you upto date.
Thanks again

Hi all
Well it's been 2 weeks since I posted here and all is looking ok thanks to you guys.
Did water test tonight and these are results:
Ph.7.4
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrites 2.0ppm
Nitrates 100ppm
I have noticed that nitrites level is still up a bit,is this to high and if so how often can I put the salt in my fish tank.i added 1kg of salt to 1000 lts of water about 3 weeks ago.
Also will nitrates level start to decrease as the plants a growing quite nicely now in all three grow beds
Thanks for support guys

You can leave the salt alone now unless you are doing water changes.

Salinity takes months to drop only 1ppt as it is only lost through evaporation and transpiration.

get a refractometer. cheap as on ebay and a valuable addition to your tool box.