Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

lol you're welcome resves3 and thank you dave.

resves3, if you're looking to go into production and want to sell to a grocer or supply depot (which supplies things like hotels and restaurants) you'll have to get you facility food safe certified... it also wouldnt hurt to do this even if your only looking to get into the farmers market... people feel all warm and fuzzy inside when they see that your food was inspected by a professional to make sure it's safe to eat... so i'd start brushing up on that in a hurry... i learned the all about food safety while spending over 10 years total in the food and beverage industry... so i took it in gradually... but there are alot of rules when it comes to keeping food safe to eat.

and dave, i look at any job like i look at playing poker... there's game basic strategy, and game strategy... basic strategy is how the game ( or job works) game strategy is how to play the game, or do the job better... and example... i joined a few forums over a year ago and said that when going commercial you'd need to make a choice as to what you're going to grow between either fish or produce, because to do both equally will never happen... because the numbers just don't add up to equal out... i was met with a lot of hostility back then, im guessing because i was a very new voice... but now when cruising the commercial boards, im starting to see more and more people coming to that realization... and then i just point these people back to what i said months ago... this kind of thing happens anytime any one says anything outside of the normal box...

The info from S&S back in the day was that they were making more from the plants and the fish were a bonus. People coming from aquaculture tend to look at it from the other direction.

the numbers just dont add up for fish production... just think about it... to be a commercially viable fish farm you'll need to produce a few hundred pounds of fish weekly to even enter the market... that number grows with the competition of the market... the more you want to be taken seriously,the more fish you need to produce regularly...

to produce a few thousand fish on an even keel, you'll need hundreds of tons of fish growing at the same time... this means, in order to do this aquaponically to recycle the water, you'd need hundreds of acres of growing area, not land, but growing area to handle the amount of toxins in the water... and even then you'd only use a plant like watercress because it grows at such a quick rate in order to process all of the ammonia... and i dont know about what you've heard, but watercress doesnt exactly have a foot hold in the produce market place...

the more fish you want, the more land you'll need... this part of the science has been figured out almost to the finest variables... mainly because this is the route Rakocy's been going... but the minimum amount of fish necessary to run an established system has yet to be found... yes you may need a certain amount to start a system, but if you find the minimum amount of fish necessary to keep the system up and running after a bacteria culture and gammarus and mosquito fish population are stable, you could essentially just take the fish from one system and use them to start another, and just making up the difference for the fish that were left behind to run the first system... this would only incrementally raise the feeding cost since you're using fractionally larger amounts of fish, instead of doubling or tripling growing area to accommodate raising the additional fish for fish production... basically the expansion cost rate of an aquaponic veggie farm have the potential to be far less than the expansion cost rate of an aquaponic fish farm.

the numbers have been down in black and white for years... im surprised no one's caught it yet in the commercial realm... it's funny when you think about it...

i missed one part of the dismount... the cost of adding just a few more fish to facility to increase the growing area is far less than the cost of needing to build more troughs to accommodate just a few fish in comparison to the size of the growing area expansion.

Alas, profitable recirculating aquaculture facilities exist virtually all over the globe, while very few people (any?) can really make a go at a profitable "aquaponics" plant-centric facility... without selling information on "how to run a profitable aquaponics facility". I wonder if lesson one is titled "How to sell information on how to run a profitable aquaponics facility... so you can claim to be a profitable aquaponics facility and thereby sell information about it to make money"..... Makes me laugh a bit, but it certainly seems to be the current model, so should be discussed in depth in any self-respecting "class", "book" or "manual" on the subject.

If you want to grow PLANTS using water and do it profitably at the commercial level, it seems quite apparent that you have a significantly higher chance for success if you ditch the fish and just go with hydroponics.

If you want to grow FISH, there are strong merits to applying some aquaponics methods to a traditional RAS design. Nitrogen export via plants (at least in part) instead of water changes or chemical treatment, and a potential additional revenue stream through the secondary sale of plants does have some strong appeal for many, and for good reason. Within THIS context, aquaponics is being practiced profitably at the commercial level, though still far from widespread. The trouble here, is that a lot of folks who claim to be experts or authorities on aquaponics, mainly the ones selling that commercial aquaponics info mentioned earlier, would have you believe that aquaculture professionals have no concept of what aquaponics "is", are not qualified to discuss it and couldn't possibly apply it correctly. I'd beg to differ. The vast majority of successful aquaculture professionals are well educated, astute business people and quite proficient in things of a biological nature. From my experience, a good number of aquaculture associations in the US are now discussing aquaponics routinely at meetings and in association publications, in a much more intelligent and APPLIED fashion than most people are currently aware of, and certainly in a much more realistic and frankly honest fashion than the folks selling the so-called "info" for a quick buck. Something to think about.

.... hellalua brother... I tend to agree with you Kellen... therein lies the future of "commercial" aquaponics IMO...

Firstly, because, and it's almost universally overlooked.... commercial hydroponics operates successfully, and profitably.. at a scale that is tenfold, or 100fold that which is being touted as "commercial" aquaponics.... because they pay for labour... whereas the "hobby farmers" selling direct to farmers markets don't pay themselves...

And there is a point of scale... where it's just not possible to operate as a "one man band"... either as a fish farmer, hydroponic grower... or, most certainly IMO... when combining the two as an aquaponics grower...

And that point of scale, is what is currently being touted as "commercial aquaponic" system/farms... but which falls well short IMO... of a scale that ensures consistant "profitability".. and "commercial" success...

Sure there is, or will be a point whereby the cost of water & hydro nutrients vs aquaponics... tilts things toward the favour of aquaponic/RAS systems.... and, as you said, this is the direction being pursued quietly by many, especially here on OZ where the raft methodology hasn't been widely adopted, and which, as many of the US proponents are discovering, has a high labour overhead involved with solids removal, and re-mineralisation inputs...

when aquaponics makes it the the point of automation it'll take a giant leap forward... you could really just install the same pH modifying machines and add them to the systems, the same with automated fish feeding, but the biggest part that needs automation if the harvesting process... this would take a labor cost and turn it into a much lower maintenance cost... this model worked for the automotive industry, and now the only cars that are still hand made cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars rage... automation would also make it cheaper for the consumer, as if most veggie prices aretn at bottom already when they're in season... the trick would be to supply veggies out of season, but this would mean indoor facilities. systems stacked on systems to fully use the lateral square-footage...

this biggest problem im seeing is people trying to sell one of the cheapest veggies and expecting returns... your basic salad is barely worth the effort... but if you couple the lettuce production (just to get the nutrient water) and then use a hybrid system of microponics to grow tomatoes and peppers, as well, then you'll stand a chance at becoming something. but these people selling the idea of becoming rich on lettuce sales... they're just using the only information available and shelling it out as the best idea...

in the training classes they talk, at great length, aboutthe growing power of lettuce (because it's the only solid data accrued over the last 30 years), and then talk about the "possible" applications of other high yield, high demand crops such as spinach, kolrhabi, chard, and things of that nature... some speicies of tomatoes do well in the system, but not all of them... large species do well in hydroponic systems, and i think that's because they're sterol systems, but the micro biology that is present in aquaponics makes things like beef steak tomatoes very problematic to grow, if they grow at all... or at least over the course of 7 months i didnt have any luck at growing large yield of tomatoes in a raft system... now egg yolk, and grape tomatoes do well, but solid evidence of yield rates has yet to be charted, at least in the main stream of it all... some melons have been shown to do well, but again, solid data doesnt exist... there's a whole lot of "this and this does well" going on but very little factual hard evidence that proves and actual growth rate... just because something survives a system that doesnt mean it can be classified as having production value (yet)...

Very well said John.

From my own observations, even a small hydroponics operation with 15,000 holes is pretty difficult to squeeze a reasonable profit from as a one man operation.... and I'd guess that is probably about the max for a one man operation. I can't imagine doing it quite frankly, and I'm a workaholic. The added labor requirements of doing it aquaponically at that level... yikes.... and we haven't even touched on the higher startup AND maintenance costs of operating an aquaponics system versus a hydroponics system... an additional cost/investment requirement that is considerable in my opinion.

What seemed to go wrong with the beefstake Tomatoes Damon? I only ask b/c I have trialed 30+ varieties of tomatoes and all have grown exeptionally well (Some better then others of course but all produced). Heirlooms, Mortgage lifters, Beefstakes, early girls, cherries, etc etc... I actually had to pick 50lbs of green tomatoes a couple weeks ago from 8 plants before we got our first freeze of the year (which wiped most of the maters out).

Was this back in the friendly system?

the beef steaks instead of growing into a bush, they grew into something that resembled a vine... ande at the end of each vine only 1 tomato grew...

also in the raft type system we didnt have much luck with peppers while i was there... we only tried a few varieties of peppers, but what would happen is one pepper would form, and quickly outgrow the stem it was growing on. s we'd end up with 1 pepper per plant. the pepper would be 2 inches tall on a plant that was 3 inches tall, and the pepper would be sitting on the raft rather than being supported by the plant... i have a picture somewhere of this happening, i think it's on my old phone... if i find it i'll post it here.

now egg yolk tomatoes grew like wild fire, so did grape tomatoes and romas. i think it's just a matter of finding tomatoes that can handle the raft systems conditions of constantly wet roots.

and yes, this was at the FAP farm. we had 5 beef steak plants all in the same system, and all grew the same deformed way... it might have just been because they were in a raft system, or possibly something was going on in the biology of the water that we wernt seeing... the crazy thing is only the fruit baring plants were effected this way in the system... in that same raft system we grew green onions, leeks, watercress, and taro, and all of those did very well. actually the green onions exploded out of the top of the net pots. we would just cut the tops of the onions off and put them into omelets and let them regrow in the system.

Beefsteaks are an indeterminate tomato so they require staking. Given the size (of the fruit), they would need some serious support if growing in a floating raft setup.

They also tend bear their fruit over the season as opposed to all at once.

Hi guys. Had a great time reading all the info gathered in this topic. Wanted to add my 50 cents as well as to ask some question.

First of all, when I read the title of the topic was very interested as ethics in somethings involves the morals around it....in this case Aquaponics; and of course being an organic farmer myself (lol, in a very very small scale) I've been looking for a bit more profits to live from this in a humble manner.

Was expecting to read about the most critical subject that aquaponics involves.... use of nutrients in an enclosed environment which helps produce and, as well, protect our plants/ecosystem and quality of living as without the consumption of chemicals and pesticides in your daily food consumption you should have a healthier life.

I myself was instructed by a agronomist to start a hydroponic system to support SOME of my expenses and be able to withstand by myself in this inflated economy. Since I dare not use any chemicals on my plants, I was very reluctant. But after last year knew had to do something or I wasn't going to able to survive but with help from my family, and I like the idea of being self sufficient (which has not been the case for my this last couple years).

I'm trying to expose my points as I go very frankly, sorry if I don't cut to the points.
Then a light appeared at the end of the tunnel when I saw Aquaponics emerge to my eyes. I thought this would be a way to gather profits and to be able to live a humble life and still keep my ideals afloat.

with the agronomist I was able to design a system that would fit in my plot and give me a nice profit on a weekly basis selling cilantro.... in short, having four systems running giving me an income of more or less 280 dollars a week of net profit and a sure sale. With the downfall that I was going to be using chemicals and worst that I was going to have to dispose the excess chemicals in my plot which would in time degrade my soil and make it polluted, which wont help any ecosystem and will take out any opportunity of getting any organic certification. Keep in mind that the chemicals in hydro not just come from the nutrients given to the plants but also from cleaning the pvc pipes with 5% clorox solution in water after gathering each weekly crop to keep the system sterile and healthy.... this will also go to the soil, and my soil grown plants will also have it in the system, and in the worst case scenario will affect rivers, underground water, and ocean water as well.

After reading this whole title thoroughly I'm thinking if aquaponics is the way to go for me. Sure I like idea of a small system that recirculates the water and that provides organics vegs, herbs, grains, tubers and maybe even a place to grow fruiting trees (small ones of course), but am worried of it making profit as we all need money in this society to survive also.

I see aquaponics as a way to make amends to our environment, and for sure will have a small system for me and my family have a good source of real organic produce, not what they sell on stores as organic which as people may not even now (by the new laws applied to organic certifications) permits in an extent the usage of chemicals in the plants; But could it really be a viable sort of income as in today? This is my biggest concern for now.

Wish I could be more affluent and not worry about profits, maybe one day as I also sell lots of trees and diff plants as well as a couple minor crops to let me get day by day. For now I will keep moving forward with my dreams, as for myself I will build a small aquaponic system to feel a bit safer every time I eat. Hopefully when I see the yield of my crops in a small system I will answer my question by myself. And hopefully aquaponics gets to be the way to go, as we need something like this for our societies to be able to have a better quality living.

So I'm just gonna come out with it...

Has anyone seen Nelson & Pades new confidentiality agreement you have to sign before taking their class????

https://aquaponics.com/docs/registratio ... ration.pdf

Particularly the place where they wrote in a non compete agreement on the first page?

How crazy is that? Or maybe I'm crazy...

Cant offer systems, classes, independent contracting or consulting for 2 years after taking the workshop? Lololol who would sign that?

We will teach you for $$$ but you have to keep it quiet for 2 years. I had a client tell me about it last week and had to see it for myself.

No you don't have to sit put or keep quiet for 2 years!
But, you can not



Start up, In direct competion with them, for a quarentin period of 2 years, you will have to cooperate in accordance with their spesific conditions in this period iff you use their system/methods/knowledge



No one would sign that iff the intentions is to offer systems, classes, independent contracting or consulting with "their way of AP" within the next 2 years, without their conditions set for you to do so by attending their courses and signing the contract.

Cracy ? I'm a bit lost here ? Is this a unetichal contract ?

cheers

Very interesting read - I personally would like to do it as a business but I too was wondering which of the two would be the most viable profit. Seem almost like neither but of the two plants seem to be the most cost effective. I would presume on a commercial scale selling the fish for profit would just turn it into a fish farm, as it was pointed out about the growing space required would be insane and would force them into filters or a pond type system and would make them leave the world of aquaponics. I know that Growing Power place down in Milwaukee charges like $16 a lb for their produce. After reading this I'm somewhat hesitant in even considering this as an option. I wonder how that growing power place sells their produce to restaurants and be food safe. If you don't know what I'm talking about YouTube growing powers. They sell both fish and produce, but I don't think they sell it year around but large batches at a time.

Thanks after reading this it may be time to consider my tank size if I'm going to be using it exclusively for my family.