Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Lets hope so, people often forget the second time round..
+1

Not at all. Lawyers would be just like your mechanic or electrician, you pay them for a service that is all. Do you always pick the cheapest dodgiest electrician you can find ? Of course not. You just pick one that seems to be running a profitiable business which means they have a good reputation and have many customers. This is much more desirable to a govt organisation that costs MANY times more, many times less efficient AND needs theft of the people to operate.

Not necessarily, if you are talking about the neighbour polluting your creek then you have things like small claims courts etc. If it was a big rich company you would presume that many more than one idividual would be effected and so in that case it would be a class action lawsuit. Don't forget in a world with little or no taxes, everyone is MUCH better off financially, expecially individuals and the small business that are currently getting shafted from taxes and regulations. Its the big corporations that benefit from all the tax laws/regulations because they can afford to pay to dodge the rules.


Of course it can, it kind of does now, just in a restricted, retarded way. Its human nature to meet the needs of others (for profit). Thats what gives us our excellent quality of life.
Also the lawyer fees shouldn't cost any more than any other type of experts consultant fees, the only reason it does now is because of some sort of govt restriction.[/quote]


No, I shouldn't have included the private road thing. It seems to be one of the more difficult topics to introduce as part of explaining the libertarian+Austrian theory. I think mainly because its such a foreign concept. "how can you possibly have competition with roads?" Walter Block explains it extremely well.




Its the stadium owners at fault in the above example. They invited the people they are responsible for the disturbance they cause. As it is today when a pub or even private party makes noise, its not the individuals that get charged, its the land owner (or renter).


This article demonstrates clearly that it is not the fault of corporations but the fault of government that allows these things to happen. Sure the corporations caused the initial problem but there is no recourse, they are PROTECTED by the government.
http://naturalsociety.com/white-house-us-courts-and-epa-shaft-veterans-to-protect-monsanto/

Sorry for the delay in responding. I put a lot of time into my responses because I don't want to do Libertarian theory an injustice. I need to show that I understand the content of the discussion and that it is referenced by experts in the field.

EB I'm sure you realise by now that we both have the same goals in the improvement of our society. It is merely the method of obtaining those goals that differs:)

Even people in government wish to improve society, it's those different methods where the conflict arises. The folks in Hollywood that started SOPA probibly had decent intentions, it is just that the method was poor.

Yes some people in government do have good intentions. The fact remains however that governments are inherently coersive, expecially democratic ones (forgetting all the totalitarian types). Unless actively kept in check by the people, governments ALWAYS seek to get larger, increase taxes and regulations, and go to war. This ALWAYS results in stealing from the people through taxes and most importantly inflation.

Inflation is the hidden tax, it affects the poor the most of all, and most people simply don't understand it.

Inflation is the entire basis of "capitalism"....

No. Inflation maybe the basis of "corrupt governments" which brings about "corrupt capitalism"
But it is not the basis of real capitalism.

From Wikipedia
There is general agreement that elements of capitalism include private ownership of the means of production, creation of goods or services for profit or income, the accumulation of capital, competitive markets, voluntary exchange and wage labor

So capitalism is very much implies a free market economy along with a somewhat free society.

What we have today with the banks, big pharma, military-industial complex, etc is not capitalism. It is government corruption that is closer to fascism that capitalism.

Inflation is a tool used by governments to raise money where raising taxes would be unpopular (always). Inflation IS printing money (inflating the money supply)

Inflation is IMPOSSIBLE if we had a true free market with free market money.
Try printing your own gold, silver or your favourite commodity.

I started to watch that video, but I just couldn;t finish.. When he started talking about "right if I want something there are two ways to go about it, I can buy it, we all agree on a price and everyone is happy this is the voluntary way. Then there's the coercive way



But they wouldn't be at all because they would have all the power. Mechanics and electricians don't have any power, they perform a simple task, they aren't responsible for life changing decision making. Needs theft to operate? Not at all, I'm happy to pay my taxes, therefore it's not theft. I'm also happy to pay medicare to keep the level of health in Australian society at a higher level than many countries which don't have a health care system.



So those without money have no voice and no power and as such no rights, or if they do have rights, they can only enforce their rights if they have money to pay lawyers and courts. This encourages bad behaviour, your large company pollutes at will so long as they can get away with it by not affecting a person or persons. Drop those barrels of hard to dispose of waste into the ocean in a quiet spot where no one will notice and there is no one to sue you... So long as no one notices and you get away with it, it's all good, you are doing nothing wrong.

Animal welfare? Animals don't have money, they can't pay for lawyers so who cares how people treat the animals on a small personal scale, and also large production levels of food animals... Society becomes all about illusion and image if there are no laws and regulations to back things up. If you can get away with things without being caught, no problem, pay media to portray a squeaky clean image, while sweeping the dead chickens under the carpet so to speak..

Whats wrong with that? Are you saying this not true ? It is very clear governments are coersive, how else do they take you land and your taxes from you without your consent ?
If the govt wants something from you and you refuse, at some point if you keep refusing you WILL have a gun to your head. If you are honest with yourself you will realise this. I highly recommend watching the whole video. Who knows, you might learnt something


No they wouldn't have all the power, you are missing the whole point about competition. Don't confuse todays world where competition is truly lacking in some cases. They perform a service and thats it. If their service is no good, people won't use them. Simple as that. If a court is corrupt and favours a particular corporation, then people won't use that court. So if there is a need for a new court or a new lawyer that represents the little guy, it will be met by someone.



OK try this experiment for me. Refuse to pay your taxes, then see what happens. Just because you are happy to contribute to a state doesn't mean everyone is. If taxes were truly popular then why do we have inflation? (remembering that inflation is how governments raise money when taxing is UNPOPULAR) Taxation IS theft. Most people don't want more taxes, and they will also want lower taxes. Maybe you are too well off and don't care about taxes, I don't know but you will find if you do a survey of the lower middle class or the people on minimum wage I doubt you will find anyone truly happy with how much the govt takes out of their weekly pay.


So have you heard how well the health system is going at the moment? How many billions of dollars wasted because the "manager" doesn't know how to do its job? Its not getting better, its getting worse. Australia is riding the biggest mining boom in history and its still running a deficit. Id like to have this conversation again when China and the other manufacturing economies have significantly reduced their imports from Australia. Where does Medicare money come from then? You think all the services provided are just from income tax ? Try googling "qld health mismanagement" The correct solution is health insurance, or save up your "untaxed" income and pay for it when you need it. Why dont you see headline after headline of mismanagement with health insurance companies ? Because they are PRIVATE they run for profit so if they do a bad job they go broke. This is feedback. QLD health is not going broke, it should, but just keeps sucking up the bottomless pit of money..
Would you be happy if your tax rate is 50%? 80% 100% ?



Those without money probably don't have any land anyway. In a fee society, EVERYONE is richer. A land owner is generally productive, making profit. If someone is polluting his land then he will get the initial money to go to court (polluter to pay when he loses, if guilty). If it is a big polluter, like I have just explained, there will probably be multiple affected landowners.. CLASS ACTION.
UNLIKE today however the government won't be there PROTECTING the large companies from lawsuites LIKE TODAY.


This happens MORE today than it would under a privately owned world. Its easy to drop things off in the ocean because no one owns it. If I owned some ocean for say fishing purposes I would come across these barrels, then find out who did it. We have forensics to discover who killed someone, so we will have forensics to find out where they came from.



There is and will always be groups that lookout for animal welfare. If someone is abusing their cat then these groups would simply hold this person ethically responsible and inform the community about this persons actions. There is no motivator to change the way you do things like public embarrasment. Animal welfare is a tough one, there a lots of grey areas. I could say you are cruel to animals by keeping wild fish in a small tank. Or farming BSF larvae to feed your fish. Some people might call it cruelty when someone only feeds their dog once every 2-3 days, the fact might be that it is actually healthier for the dog and the owner uses the dog for hunting.

As far as large companies go like the chicken farm for example. If people think its cruel they can buy non cruel eggs (thats what we personally do, despite the fact that the "free range" chickens are probably still very intensivley farmed and to get truly non "cruel" eggs you would probably have to pay $5 per egg, in which case no one would buy those eggs)
The alternative is to have a government run farm that allocates one "carer" to each chicken to make sure all their needs are met. But its all paid for by taxes and so the eggs are still only $2/dozen.

PS Watch the video, and maybe the other Walter Block videos as well. That is if you can handle something that challenges the way you think about the status quo

But this is my point... The whole debate isn't really a debate of any sort because it's based on "this ideal capitalist world will be great compared with the corrupt crappy one we have at the moment".

It's absolute total speculation, fantasy, a dream that perhaps there might be a better way.. This was tried before, an ideal way to live where everyone has equal rights and it's called communism. Communism has a terrible stigma attached to it thanks to western society, and yeah it's not perfect but what socio-political system is. 2/3 of the worlds population lives in communist countries and China has the fastest growing economy in the world...

You just don't get ideal worlds, it doesn't happen... All these arguments seem to swing only in extremes. The only other alternative is Government run eggs farms with a permanent carer for each chicken? Since when is that the only other alternative to totally free unregulated egg production? Government are all thieves. Any taxes are stealing. If you refuse to do what the government says you WILL have a gun to your head? No I won't, that's just scare tactics for the point of scare tactics and nothing else.

The whole argument just seems to run on scare tactics, "will you be happy taxes at 50%? 80% 100%?" What?

No its based on real situations and real examples. All combined together in a totally free world is extrapolation, but individual cases pretty much all have real examples throughout the world and history. Actually one example that comes to mind is America. A few good examples in its history of almost totally free society and prosperity, I'm sure there are others..


Haha, it's the exact OPPOSITE of communism I'm aguing for. It's because of aspects of communism and socialism that is causing all the problems !!

Communism SHOULD have a terrible stigma attached to it. It is the ultimate in govt coersion and control. And poverty. Do you know why the berlin wall even existed? And when it was knocked down all those people fled from the communist East to the capitalist West. If you like poverty then go to north korea.

The China example is just ignorant I'm afraid. The only reason China is so wealthy now is because of capitalist behaviour in the Chinese market place. Companies can be formed and produce good for profit. Competition between companies create efficiency and more value for the consumer. Does private profit and competition sound like communism to you ?? Commuinism is structured upon non private ownership of the means of production, which is the exact opposite to what I have just described.


Your right, but it would be nice if we were heading the right direction. I never mentioned an ideal world, just improvements to the current one. Its not like it hasn't happened before, if you read history literature...


It's often usefull to talk about extremes in cases like this. If I talk about 0.1% tax increase or one less regulation, you will be wondering why I'm even bothering. It just isn't helpful.
Plus the state of the government and taxes and regulations is not static. It is always changing, usually for the worse.
Nailed it.

How can you even deny this? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but lets explore what would happen if someone didn't want to pay tax...
Billy doesn't pay his tax, he gets lots of angry letters from the tax department.
He still doesn't pay his tax, then what ? he gets away with it? No, he is then probably summoned to court. He doesn't have to go. Let say he doesn't, then what ? Isn't there some point at which he gets arrested ? If he refuses to go with the cops he will get forcibly handcuffed, if he fights back there WILL be guns pointed at him.
So how is this not coercion ? If he was truly free he wouldn't be in jail or dead for not paying his taxes.
Can you alter the scenario above so that Billy can not pay his taxes but is not subject to violence ?


Simple question, you said you like paying taxes. The highest marginal tax rate in australia is about 45%? If you are happy to pay this perhaps you are happy to pay 46%? what about 50%
At what point do you EB say, I pay too much tax ?
Add to this the effect of inflation and your purchasing power is reduced by 5-10% per year.
Are you also happy with this ? What if it goes higher to 20% ? or higher....

China was always called " margarine communist" because it was barely ever truly communist. It does have a long history of despotism... Big Business has always had a way to pull that switcharoo. In fact the unamericizing of communism was one of the first successful modern public relations campaigns. Every media was used to orchestrate what Edward Bernays, Sigmund Freud's nephew, felt the American public should think. It was he who first swaped "going to war" with " spreading democracy" and it was he who took the despots that used the communist movements to weasel into power, as an example of why communism is bad. IMHO, somewhere in between is best. The things that keep all in line are transparency, and participation.

All things in moderation Superveg, and that's just way too extreme for me... It is illogical to string together a few examples of how things should be in an ideal world and then try to extrapolate that into a totally different society. You have to look at the whole story, there are other outside influences that effect things which are not taken into account in this utopian view. Have you seen "the beach".

Each to their own..... I only hope that I never get to see a world anything like that myself, and no, you won't convince me otherwise..

Yes transparency is good Ron, if only we could loose the "Spin" that is put on everything.. And isn;t it funny how it's now "spin", used to be called propaganda..

I guess too much change too quick can be upsetting..
I'm a bit dissapointed you are accusing me of having some utopian view (again), if you ever get around to really understanding the libertarian view you will realise how silly it is to use that word.
Suggesting that I am not taking certain things into account is aguable as well, since I believe I have a pretty good understanding of different types of political systems and different economic systems. It is by studying the economic effects of any type of government (or lack thereof) allows you to truly evaluate the effects. I really don't believe you have studied any of this (maybe I'm wrong, you could just be a commie )

All things in moderation... not in this case perhaps. Poverty, despotism, corruption in moderation isn't my idea of a good thing.

Each to their own indeed, I am after all the libertarian

My purpose was not to convince you. It was for anyone else reading this forum. To change your mind about something signficant you generally need at least 7 independent trusted sources. So I was never going to convince you or anyone from one forum thread.
Open minded thinking people can see the arguments and counter aguments that occured over last few pages, maybe (I hope) it will help people to think for themselves, instead of letting TV do the thinking for them.

What I hope I have done is properly define things such as capitalism and corrupt capitalism. They are very different and we all need to be very careful about accusing capitalism of faults in our world when it is really the exact opposite that is actually causing all the problems.

Always follow the money, it might seem some large corporation is doing something bad (which they probably are) but it's the corrupt government, with its monopoly on force that allows it.

I use the word utopian because it's hard to think of a word more fitting. How else can you describe something like this. When you put forward a rather extreme view that society should run "this way", and it will be a lot better for everyone. Well that is highly debatable, why? Because it has never happened, the world has not been there so you can not say that it will definitely work, it's theoretical.

Theory is not fact....