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PostPosted: Dec 1st, '06, 13:30 
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so far so good.... I have two new batches. Running out of room!!!! I thaink i posted pics... but I'll get some this weekend. Good to have you back dude


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PostPosted: Dec 1st, '06, 20:22 
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Saw the pics looks like my baby guppie tank..full of little ones.
Seems we are still missing some folks around here. Where is Joyce?


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PostPosted: Jan 15th, '07, 09:42 
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OK, MF you cant be that busy for an update are you?


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PostPosted: Jan 17th, '07, 08:27 
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Hey John, winter is in full force. I'm strugling this year to keep the water warm enough for the tilapia. I've segregated the tanks into two. One heated and one non-heated. The Heated has the two new generations swimming about. The non-heated has what's left of my males and females.... I've eaten all but 5. Spring will see the 5 back into the breeding tank and the two generations into the stock tank for growout.
Little to no mortality yet. The only mortality occurred when i got lazy about feeding the fry and they started picking on each other. I still have over 90%.

I see you over there struggling with winter. Spring will bring new concepts I'm sure. I've thought about your dillemma alot actually and when the weather gets good we need to talk.


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PostPosted: Jan 17th, '07, 09:25 
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Sounds good Michael, I can live with the snow its them short days that I really dislike. Great to hear your doing well aside from a case of the lazies.


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PostPosted: Jan 18th, '07, 01:59 
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The short days severely limit any thermal incline or solar storage dont they. I was thinking of building (this summer) a passive solar collector with a low amperage active solar fan or pump to move the air/water heated during those short days. Kind of like a rain cache system only for sun energy. Either that or use Arctic Char for fish.


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PostPosted: Jan 18th, '07, 07:51 
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Any new picture MF! I'd love to see how the system looks now 8)


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PostPosted: Jan 25th, '07, 07:22 
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One year update on system.

Nearly one thousand gallons of water, 200-300 new fish, and 50 square feet of canopy space later, I wish to re-count my efforts thus far and provide a solid update for the benefit of this thread and others who may wander through and not want to sift through all the pages. Pictures will come this Spring after I clean up the “greenshop” from a very dormant winter.

Disclaimer: I am not a record keeper of any kind and guesstimate most of the time offering subjective analysis only such as “the proof is in the pudding” so; readers beware!

Gravity Fed Venturi Drain to Grow Beds and Sump Recapture design ANALYSIS:

This is my best and proudest accomplishment with this system, which is why I mention it first off. In fact I will never deviate from this design after having been through multiple pump systems and float switch operations and inadequate sumps. One pump cycled the entire system and I am sure this helped cut down on costs. Not once did I ever sustain flooding unless I forgot to turn off the water valve when topping off the system during small water changes or evaporation refill. For the most part I left the system duties to one (pricey but incredibly adjustable) analog timer which required few adjustments and hardly any attention once set. In fact, if it weren’t for the simple problem that I had too little growbed space (more on that below) to use up all that water, I would have left the timer on indefinitely the entire year confident in design of the system. As it turns out, my chosen plants didn’t need that much water and I had insufficient grow bed space to cycle all that water, so I actually shut the system down completely sometimes and just left a small Dankoff Solar pump cycling within the fish tank for aeration (which proved unnecessary in the end and the solar pump was for the most part pointless). The chosen main pump, a Craftsman .33 horsepower was perfect for cycling duty and, if anything filled the main tank so adequately that I could have taken the venture drain in the main tank down a few inches to allow more water to move through grow beds had there been more of them. However, it would be easier and less complicated just to add more grow beds with a second Craftsman pump next to the other and cycle after the first pump shut down and water level in the main tank subsided (this would ensure the main tank was always being cycled and subsequently aerated and improved with fresher water) returned to normal. As it turned out, I could have watered at least twice as much grow bed volume (more later).

Tilapia

Despite my best efforts to inhibit breeding and slowly kill the original six acquired from the pet store, these fish not only survived unthinkable DO levels, non-tropical (or even sub-tropical) temperatures, multiple transfers from tank to tank, endless manhandling, my kids scaring the crap out of them all the time, overfeeding, under feeding (starvation), dropping them on the floor trying to figure out sex, etc. etc., BUT they produced an estimated 1,000 offspring behind my back (finding fry at one point living in the growbeds! And a natural pest control solution by the way)! There was never enough space to keep all the fry I wanted, but I managed to grow about 30 of these into adults while developing a more breeder friendly environment (more tanks/more water) which produced another 200-300 fry under my careful watch. Fish mortality was never an issue and the only reason fry died in the early days was due to my not realizing they were born and letting them get eaten or cycled through the system unawares. I NEVER monitored water parameters! EVER!. If it started to smell fishy I made sure the system cycled more often and that always took care of it (to the sacrifice of over watering the plants but that is where my system design was weakest). I did eat 30 adults (sorry Vegans) once the original brood stock was segregated. In the end I would say very tasty, but they didn’t achieve great sizes enough to make it worth the effort of filleting and de-boning. With limited grow bed space I was unable to cycle water as often as needed for optimum fish growth and therefore was limited ultimately by the size of my system rather than the potential of the Tilapia.

Grow Beds / Drains / and Plants

This was the Achilles heal in the system only because I failed to allot more space dedicated for grow beds within my Greenshop. Given the stocking density the system was capable of (given the fact that Tilapia are prolific and impossible to kill) I could have gotten away with two, three, or even four times the grow bed coverage I ended up with. With 1,000 gallons of water filled with 500 fish, I could have started an auxiliary greenhouse full of plants. In setting up the grow beds I got rather inpatient with developing a proper drain (the now infamous auto-siphon) and didn’t calculate the weight of the gravel when selecting the thickness of the plastic troughs (grow beds). They came on steel frames that I supported with a rail system scaffold frame, but the trough sagged between the spars when loaded with gravel (and later water). This in turn stressed the drains and they forever dripped, to the point where the catch buckets had to be emptied daily. Had I simply inserted a plywood length between the trough between spars, it wouldn’t have sagged and I’d be farther ahead on growbed design. As it turned out, I was not motivated to empty the gravel and start over. I left it the entire year. I thought I had a good drain system with a dam like mound at the end of the grow bed that was built up higher than the water level and forced water through the gravel rather than over it. This also allowed the incoming water to fill faster than the outgoing water and in the end was good enough to allow flood and drain. Better yet, I ended up digging out a center channel (much like a river bed) and with use of the solar pump on continuous flow in the summer I could keep about two inches of water in the growbed at all times (lower than the root systems of the plants, but high enough to keep a little creek going down the middle. This is when I noticed Tilapia fry in my little creeks. Within two weeks, the lettuce leaves stopped showing holes in them and the growing Tilapia fry would hang out under the leaves and I assume prey on insects. I never fed them. This worked very well until I started to worry that the pump would fail and the creek run dry, stranding the fry. I managed to filter about 30 fingerlings out of the creek bed and into the sump tank, but the lettuce never had problems after that for about a four month stretch. I grew Lettuce, Basil, and Cilantro, all very robust and tasty. Everything has become overgrown and the lettuce plants have since flowered and gone native! Initially I just threw the seeds into the gravel and they remained dormant until I tore the roof off the Greenshop and replaced it with polycarbonate. Everything sprouted and it has never been the same. The gravel medium I chose was satisfactory and not too fine. In fact I enjoyed making creekbeds out of it and observing the miniature ecosystem. The water would flow in at one end of the grow beds, run it’s course down the middle like a flash flood filling a dry wash and solids naturally came to rest in little eddies and pockets of gravel while plants grew wild on the riverbanks….

Analysis and Future Plans

Me and the Missus were going to get a small piece of land so I could get the greenhouse I needed to accommodate the grow space needed for this system and more. However things have settled down and I am searching for ways to expand my space within the parameters of our .38 acre plot in the city. At the very least I will be able to double growbed space inside the Greenshop by moving the sump tank underneath the growbeds and building a wider frame platform to add two more troughs. Although I fiddled with the auto siphon, I didn’t follow through once the winter started coming, so come Spring it’s me, plastic pipe, a cold beer, and Les on the horn! I am convinced auto siphons are the solution to growbed drainage, although I will miss seeing Tilapia swimming in my growbeds. Solar anything is difficult in the winter here and after this winter, convinced that it needs more attention. Fish simply do not grow when water is cold, particularly Tilapia. More insulation is needed. I still want to grow rice, but it will have to wait until I can spare one growbed without sacrificing the water quality. This year it will be drains, more beds, and increasing insulation and thermal/passive solar retention.

Auxiliary greenhouse and rice…..2008. :o


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PostPosted: Jan 25th, '07, 08:04 
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Thankyou for the indepth update MF, it was a pleasure to read. You should be proud of your siphon drain from the fish tank. It is truely innovative and will save cost significantly, compared with the two pump system.

Regards Sam


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PostPosted: Jan 25th, '07, 08:13 
Almost divorced
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Thank you


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PostPosted: Jan 25th, '07, 08:32 
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I can't believe I missed the tank drain until now!! What an awesome idea!!

Do you have problems with fish being sucked through (other than the fry)? How close to the bottom is the end of the outer pipe and does it need to be enclosed at the top (I assume not)? Does it remove the solids from the tank well? The angle of the water return no doubt helps.

To work out the height of the inner tube do you need to allow enough water to fill all of the grow beds or does the sump need to provide some slack? Would a float switch in the sump be better than the timer?

Sorry for the million questions, but it is a brilliant idea and I would like to try and incorporate it into my setup before I get some fish on the weekend (nothing like the last minute).

EDIT:
Mike, I have just been re-reading some of the older auto-syphon threads and I think that the venturi drain may make syphoning out the grow beds a bit tricky. It will be hard to adjust the inflow of water into the beds to be within the range of the syphon. Too slow and it won't start and too fast and it won't stop. You may need to measure the drain rate from the tank and then set the syphons accordingly.

Nova


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PostPosted: Jan 25th, '07, 17:58 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Congratulations Mike - a very good read

So you finally admitted it was the tilapia that innovated the creek in the growbed and here's me thinking it was your brilliant idea


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PostPosted: Jan 26th, '07, 00:39 
Almost divorced
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Les...haha. I wish I could say I was responsible, but it was intelligent design;)

Nova…the venturi drain design is the drain design of choice in aquaculture and it is where I learned the setup. I’ve never found any fish greater than 20mm sucked up into the drain. I could easily have put a mesh screen around the inlet if this were a concern; however I now discourage breeding in the main tank by stocking all males. Breeding inhibits growth and increases aggressiveness in males so it’s for the better.

Solids drain well through the venturi. The key to clearing solids out of the main tank is to cycle water in a circular manner with sufficient current as to get the solids traveling around the tank toward the center (cyclone effect). Once the solids are within about 20cm range of the venturi it starts to take over and pull them closer until within 2-3cm and then they disappear. Solids make it to the beds fine. There is some settling of solids in the pipes toward the lowest point of the plumbing once the cycle is off, but the next cycle has sufficient power to kick what settled out, replacing it with new settled matter. No residual build up over time.

The height difference between the inside venturi drain pipe and the outer pipe can be used to solve a volume equation based on the circumference of your tank. Once you figure out how many gallons (liters) are being pumped out in one cycle you can mate it to equal volume beds. Actually you end up pumping a bit more based on the water exiting the venturi as the tank is filling, so I figured I was pumping about 1.5 times the base volume. Using an accurate timer helps you fine tune the volume balance between the tank and the beds. (A float switch is not accurate and a float switch system must have two pumps, one at each end).

You may be right about the auto siphon, which is why I had trouble with it when I tried it. On smaller grow beds. I will give it a shot this spring with the big main beds and if it doesn’t work, well I tried.

Thanks for the kind words….


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PostPosted: Jan 26th, '07, 05:33 
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michael_Ferrini wrote:
Thanks for the kind words….

Just wanted to let you know what an awesome setup you have built. 8)

Before I fill my tank I will be putting a drain in the wall to allow for a venturi style outet, will have a play once I get my bigger beds "online".

Nova


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PostPosted: Jan 26th, '07, 05:36 
Almost divorced
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Location: Yuba City, California
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PM me if you need any help.


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