Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

That wasn't directed at you. kthignight24 said he hadn't heard of heavy metals entering the system. I was showing him another source of heavy metal contamination.

You are starting to sound like a salesman from the local pet fish shop telling people to buy chlorine neutraliser as it removes chlorine and heavy metals.
Interestingly, neutraliser actually contains a chelating agent, causing any heavy metal to become chelated... how many people add chelated iron to their grow beds?

I was told by someone a long time ago that was quite knowledgable in the field that bio film acts as a flocculant, effectively removing heavy metals from the water.
The same person that told me that 90% of aquarium fish generally arent affected by levels of chlorine you find in tap water if water changes dont exceed 70%.
Since then I have never used chlorine neutraliser and change 50% of my fish tanks water per week and have never lost a fish to chlorine poisoning or heavy metals, in 15 years of fish keeping.

I also know of someone who has kept aquarium fish for 30 years without ever using a chlorine neutraliser. He was keeping them when all house pipes were copper, unlike now when most water pipes are pvc.

And aquarium fish can be kept for much longer than fish in an AP system, one of mine is over 8 years old.

You know, in my 25 years of fish keeping, it was only the last two years I did use a chlorine remover.

My philosophy is that there's a difference between thriving and surviving. To each his own...

I have heard many people say that as well.
But if all my fish are breeding and healthy and have excellent colours, how are they not thriving?

Did you notice a difference in your fish in the last 2 years compared to the previous 23 after adding neutraliser?
What made you start adding the neutraliser if you had no problems previously?

I once had a friend who serviced gearboxes. He offered a free gearbox check offer for 1 month.
Everyday he was checking 100 cars for free for the entire month.
Every single car, he checked the gearbox oil, then called the client and told them that there was nothing wrong, however the oil was a little low and for $12 he could top it up for them if they wished.
Easiest $1200 per day he ever made.

My theory is that chlorine neutraliser is the local fish shop version of gearbox oil.
There is about 20c worth of Sodium Thiosulfate or equivalent, 20c worth of EDTA or equivalent, water and a plastic bottle with a pretty sticker.
But they only charge $12 a bottle, so for $12 it is better to be safe than sorry... blah blah blah...

My philosophy is if it aint broke, dont fix it

That's about it in a nutshell Werna... chlorine will offgas within < 24 hours... with "bubbling"... with the normal aeration one should have within an AP system...

Chloromines are a slightly different story... and there are many threads on the subject...

Life is very interesting and amazing. I can give you countless examples of animals breeding in poor conditions. In fact, even humans reproduce when environmental conditions are poor with reproduction actually increasing. This may be why developing countries have higher population growth rates than developed countries.

Also, for the most part, especially since we're talking about water exchange/renewal, if you're only doing this once every couple of weeks, months, etc, your fish are probably fine. Any damage or discomfort is quickly recovered and forgotten.

Maybe this isn't a good analogy, so I'll think about a better one ... If a hurricane came through your town every now and then and devastated it, as a matter of necessity you get used to it. But just because you rebuild and live your life, doesn't mean that when the hurricane returns, you're not 'inconvenienced'.



I actually do large WC b/c I have young fish. Younger fish have a lower tolerance to chlorine than adult fish and when the fish you're growing out are worth $10-15 and inch, you tend to take a little more precaution than feeder goldfish from the pet store.

What made me more diligent in doing WC was also because I noticed my fish getting dark and stressed after two WC when I forgot to add dechlorinator. They also started breathing at the top of the tank (make no mistake, one HOB filter, one sponge filter connected to powerhead, and a canister filter provides plenty of aeration so it wasn't lack of DO) especially when your tank isn't covered.



I don't know enough about cars to really talk on this ... but what's the real problem here? That he was charging for a service that was not needed or that he was overcharging for a service that someone could do for $4 themselves (cost of a quart of oil)?

I mean, if your car is low on oil, from what I know that causes damage. Is it urgent, probably not. Could it be a problem... yes. It sounds to me, your friend gouged customers and that's the main issue. Would you have the same issue if he charged $2-3? Then is he performing a necessary preventative maintenance? <shrug> I don't know enough about cars.



So again, is the question about how much they charge or about the necessity of it? Just because people overcharge, doesn't mean the service itself is unnecessary.

Take anything in this world and a pretty bottle and label increases the cost. The people who are more money conscious will find alternatives, or just make do and take the risks. I have mechanic friends that say all the time people will drive off with unsafe cars because they refuse to believe a mechanic when they tell them the car is dangerous (in fear that they're being ripped off). They admit, in fairness, that some mechanics are unethical, but at times, some consumers are just so stubborn they don't see danger when it's staring them in the face. Whether they charged $500 or $2000 for a repair that only costs $100 parts only, doesn't change the fact it's needed.



Anyway, take a look at your water report. You'll see that your average chlorine is probably 0.5ppm on average to maybe 1ppm. Research has shown that anything around 0.5ppm is generally safe for aquariums. What does this mean? That on average your WC, especially if you do less than 50% is going to be safe for your fish.

During winter months though and after super-chlorination (if water company finds leaks or other pathogens), the FDA has allowable levels of up to 4ppms. That means if you do a 25% WC, your fish may be okay depending on the size of your WC and the type of fish you have. If you do a 50% WC, then you might have some problems.

For my tanks I do 50-75% WC. For Discus, they are known to have issues with requiring really clean water. Yes, I have gone without changing it for a few days and the last time I did it, I lost a fish (may be unrelated). The other few times I had forgotten the fish had classic signs of stress (darting, darkened coloration, not eating, hiding in corners, etc). For my pleco tanks, I do WC of about 5% per day (just because I'm doing my discus tanks daily anyway but sometimes I'll go a couple of weeks without changing it and not be worried about it.


Finally, pH and temperature effects how it reacts in the water and how it impacts your fish.

So, you're probably right that based on your water chemistry, fish, and water change regimen, you might be okay but then you might just have been lucky.

So like I said before, to each his (or her) own.

I meant EPA... second, I just realized WA might not mean Washington (State), USA

I have no idea what the chlorination procedures are in Australia and what department/agency/bureua/whatever handles/regulates that (nor do I really care). What little I have seen on the matter is from this forum and it appears Australians have chloramine in most parts.

Anyway, my ORIGINAL point is that WC can be a healthy way to control nitrates while you're working on figuring out how to balance your bioload (for whatever reason, whether it's a new tank, temporary overfeeding, etc). I couldn't care less where that water comes from so long as it's clean (well, rain, tap, etc). While we went off on the tangent, if you have chloramine, I highly suggest you use a neutralizer, but if your fish 'seem' fine, it's up to you.

There is research that indicates (although not conclusively) that high nitrates may impact the immune system. Anecdotally, (from third parties and personal experience), I can say I have reason to believe this is true. So while nitrates may not be a source of disease, it can weaken the fish to getting disease. Further, there is research that shows fish can 'live' in high nitrate environments fine, but for fry/juveniles, nitrates less than 35ppm is best for growth (which is why I change my water so often for my growout tanks).

Again, I don't speak in absolutes. If it works for you and your comfortable with the potential risks, then I wouldn't recommend you change a thing.

But in the end, a little bit of fresh water probably going to help more than hurt. It's pretty cheap (the stuff literally falls out of the sky). Also, I don't know about your part of the world, but my tap water has a decent concentration of calcium, magnesium, and other trace elements (free fertilizer).

@sendthis - I wasn't meaning to disprove anyone's point. I just googled... the link looked interesting and it seemed to apply, so I threw it in the post. I wasn't meaning to argue against water changes. It's a great suggestion for the poster... I had just never heard about accumulation of heavy metals in an AP system and I wanted to get as much info as possible about it.

As always... thanks everyone for helping us newbies out!

I think we will have to agree to disagree.
I cant be bothered arguing over this, its been done before.... many times over.

I will however agree that discuss are picky, and if I was inclined to keep them I probably would neutralise the water. However, they are not the kind of fish that I like to keep, for eating or ornamental purposes!

If you think discus are expensive in the US, have a look at Australian ornamental fish prices.
An excellent example is L046 Zebra Plecos. They retail at around $2000ea over here.
I have seen apparent WC ones in the US selling for $275.
Discus prices start over here at about $65-$80 ea.

Your original point was water changes are beneficial to get rid of heavy metals as well, and my original point was that biofilm in the filter/growbeds removes heavy metals.
I dont see the need personally, however, if you feel the need, as you said, each to their own.

Got it, it's cool I must have missed your main point with all you wrote about dechlorinator and auto mechanics.

We have had silver perch (43) for just 12months now, they are showing growth which is great. We had a great crop of celery over winter and spring and I have replaced that with capsicum a cucumber and oregano in that bed.they are not doing well. Another bed is growing spinach and lettuce. they are going well, the spinach is the last of the crop I put in early winter.In the third bed I put 8 tomato plants and basil plants in between, they are not doing well. There is also a lebanese cucumber that gave me 2 cucumbers and is now dying. The tomatoes grew for a while and I have one tomato, but now 2 of them are dying from the top, going black and looking rather seedy. The basil hasn't even started to grow, mind you it hasn't died yet. My readings are PH 6.8, nitrite 0, ammonia 0 and the nitrate 40. this concerns me, we have done a third water change but nothing changed. I have been reading up and some have said about putting more plants in. HELP, What do you think?

More plants would certainly use the nitrates... if you can't add more plant because the beds are full... then add another grow bed...

A Nitrate reading of 40... is NOT a problem... don't water change.... the nirtification will just bump them back....

All a water change will do... is deprive the plants (temporarily)...