Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

ivansng

Thanks for that info, I definitively need to look that up I will be having fish as a protein source. If anyone know if it safe please let me know here is the info for the product I am using:


For use in freshwater and saltwater aquariums. Use during new aquarium setup and after water changes to instantly treat tap water by removing harmful chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. Also reduces the effects of ammonia. Protects fish with four slime coat enhancers. Measuring cap included.

Ingredients:
Water, EDTA, PVP, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Thiosulfate, Glycerin.

Instructions:
Use when adding tap water to new or existing aquariums along with Top Fin Bacteria Supplement (sold separately). For best results, mix Water Conditioner with tap water before adding to aquarium. If also adding a bacteria starter (like Top Fin Bacteria Supplement - sold separately), allow water to circulate for at least 15 minutes before adding bacteria starter.

Dosage:
Use 10 mL for each 10 U.S. gallons (38 mL)

Product of USA.

2 fl. oz. (treats up to 60 gallons)
4 fl. oz (treats up to 120 gallons)
8 fl. oz. (treats up to 240 gallons)
16 fl. oz. (treats up to 480 gallons)

I am kind of scare now, the Potassium Chloride is use in lethal injection, as the third of a three-drug combination. Additionally, KCl is used (albeit rarely) in fetal intracardiac injections in second- and third-trimester induced abortions is one of the ingredients of that TopFin conditioner. I better stop using that crap.

Well, I have no choice I must use a water conditioner, here are my city water stats:

Theres some nasty chemicals in there. Glad I have rainwater
I still wouldnt use water conditioner but put some town water in a drum or something with an air stone for a few days.

Potassium chloride is also used as a substitute for normal table salt for people on a
sodium reduced diet.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/44062 ... able-salt/

I suspect that if you inject most things found around the house the outcome will not be
favourable.

ie vegemite injection, chilli paste injection etc.

The last thing I would be concerned about is the KCl.

cheers Lou

Water - well I'm not certain about your's looking at that analysis but I don't know what's considered safe for Atrazine and some of the other things listed.

EDTA - This one should be ok since it's used in chelated iron supplements.

PVP - Lets see - found this at this website http://truthinaging.com/ingredients/pvp-polyvinylpyrrolidone

Potassium Chloride - I'd go with what trout said on this one.

Sodium Chloride - table salt

Sodium Thiosulfate - - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_thiosulfate
Pentahydrated just means it has 5 water molecules attached.

I can't say this one is safe but it is not considered highly toxic. You are not supposed to swallow it but only need to contact a doctor if you swallow large quantities. Here is a link to the MSDS http://www.safewater.org/PDFS/owd/SodiumthiosulfatepentahydrateMSDS.pdf

Glycerin - Can be found in cosmetics and food

I'm going to stop just short of saying I think this is totally safe - only because of the Sodium Thiosulfate and for the same reason MSDS sheets look bad even for table salt. Still in the quantities of Sodium Thiosulfate needed to dechlorinate the water for our systems I feel it would be safe enough and I have actually used the product you showed.

If you are dealing with chlorine and not chloramine, letting the water sit is a better option, otherwise I would use this since chloramine won't break down very easily otherwise.

Don't use the stuff.... I had a client that used it... and killed an entire batch of trout in two days...

In fact don't use ANY aquaria products... they're not designed for fish destined for human consumption... and most are carcenogenic, and banned even in aquaculture... and are hugely expensive... and mostly snake oil....

In fact... ignore any advice from any aquaria shops...

Why did you use it?.... to remove chlorine.... by adding Potassium Chloride, Sodium Chloride???

The slime coat production benefit can be obtained just by salting to 1ppt...

Sodium Thiosulfate is definitely suspect with regards to human healt... and almost completely useless...

Chlorine can be removed from water... simply by exposing it to sunlight.. and bubbling... for 24 hours...

Chloromine is a different story.... and chlorine/chloromine has been the subject of a squazillion previous posts....

Try a search.... here's a recent post for example...

viewtopic.php?p=295586#p295586

I am not using the conditioner in my FT just in the water I am adding to it but I think my FT water have Chloromine. I am running a fishless cycle I don't want to add the fish and kill them all. I have the fish on a 20gal fish-tank for the time been but they seen to be doing just fine and I did use the conditioner on the fish tank. Very confusing stuff.

Ouch that hurt. Lost a book I wrote and all the links to show that this is not evil nasty stuff.

Rupe your client probably added the conditioner directly to the water containing the fish and this may have done them in because it can cause the release of ammonia and can also use up the oxygen in the water. In most cases I would not expect this to be a problem but apparently it was in their case.

Regarding it's safety. First off our own bodies produce Sodium Thiosulfate from the breakdown of amino acids found in proteins. Second I looked for but did not find any ban on the use of this product in aquaculture. Third, as far as I can tell none of the ingredients listed, are carcinogens or toxic in anything but large doses and most are used in food, medicine or cosmetics.

Here's an interesting group that uses Sodium Thiosulfate as an antioxidant and to remove heavy metals - http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/sodium_thiosulfate.html
(Maybe they're nuts/maybe not). I'm not advocating this, just pointing out it does get used this way.

This product lists what is a safe amount for fish and how to use it- http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/30/Sodium-Thiosulfate-4-lb-Jar
the safe amount for the fish is roughly 3 to 10 times the amount required to treat tap water.

Rupert - I noticed that Karen (Swanberg) asked you for references that indicate Sodium Thiosulfate is a problem and there was no reply in that thread. I would also be interested in this information. Here's the link to that thread - http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=9890

vitin6039 - you lost me on your explaination. Which fish tank did you use the conditioner on, the one with the fish or the one without that you are fishless cycling?

Ok I am sorry,

I have two FT one to hold the fish before I cycle(FT1) and the main one (FT2). I condition the water outside the FT1 and then added the water to the tank, the fish are doing just fine. I been using it in the small FT1 with out any issues for a week or two.

Vitin6039

By the way Algae just started to grow in my FT2 so I guess the water is not toxic to life or bacteria.

Probably be good to see what Rupe has to say but I really don't see a problem. This boils down to what you are comfortable with and people pretty much split both ways (maybe not equally because most of us are concerned about adding anything if it can be avoided). Check to see what the recommended dosage is to remove chloramine. I noticed that some websites recommend doubling the dose to remove chloramine but can't say if this is necessary.

If you decided to use the conditioner in fish tank 2 ( the one without the fish as I understand it) here is what would happen -

Sodium Thiosulfate would break the Chloramine into chlorine and ammonia. The Sodium Thiosulfate will render the chlorine harmless to the bacteria in your biofilter/growbed, and your growbeds once they are cycled would convert the ammonia to nitrate rendering the ammonia harmless. After the cycling is complete then you can think about adding the fish but not necessarily all at once, take your time.

So that's what you can expect going this route. Now if there is another way of doing this which doesn't involve the use of chemicals and gets the job done, my advice is to go for it. As others have mentioned none of the products are listed for human consumption even though they may claim to be safe and non-toxic. Having something say it's not for human consumption can mean different things and sometimes only means that they didn't feel the expense of proving it's safe was worth it.

scotty435,


Thanks for that thoughtful recommendation it makes a lot of sense to me and as a AP Newbie I am going to take your advice and just condition the water after the cycle is over and add my fish shortly after in increments of maybe 3 fish at a time I have 21 fish right now. Thank you for your help.


Vitin6039

Vitin6039,

Hmm,

Not quite what I meant. You can treat now and it makes sense to do so because if you don't the chloramine will inhibit the establishment of bacteria on your biofilter/growbed and it will take longer to cycle the system.

By treating the water now you get rid of the chloramine and chlorine leaving the ammonia. Ammonia is bad news for fish but not for the bacteria, in fact the ammonia is a good addition to the fishless cycling of the system. Once that cycling process kicks in the ammonia you created with the conditioner treatment will be converted to nitrate. If the system is totally cycled then you can start adding the fish in the way you mentioned.
Hope this helps.

Cheers

Update:

Day 30

Ammonia = 0 ppm
Nitrite = < 5 ppm
Nitrate = 10 ppm

Now, should I add more ammonia until the nitrite start to go down or just leave it as is and just wait until the nitrite get to 0 own its own? I want to make sure the bacteria have enough food to survive but there is no ammonia in the water.