Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Je suis d'accord

I am not understanding the french.

I came across the charter and all that a few days ago, was quite confused and a little perturbed not to find any BYAP representation there.

I know there are other associations and all that as well but I'm all for the idea, it will help more than we can imagine as it will not only be a body like the BYAP forum that shares information and knowledge but also disseminates it as part of its objectives.

Whatever differences you guys have amongst yourselves, "real" or "perceived" I think they should just be put aside in interest of creating a forum which combines all the different schools of thought in AP today, of which only BYAP is missing from their current list.

Anyhew, that's just my humble two bits. I sent them an email after I saw it regarding having a Pakistan branch of it. Just ran across this thread today though.

Also, I don't understand the point of the membership fees, what will it go to? Will they give publications or something to the members? Or is it that the members will have access to a pay per click site of some sort? Or will those funds be used for association events or activities?

Seems to be another attempt to start some government situation by a few, to control the rest, making up a bunch of silly laws, even to the point of levying taxes on the poor subjects to support the king.

What would a new organisation do that byap doesn't?

The only thing I can think of would be to represent the ap industry. Since the ap retailers don't get along and the commercial industry doesn't yet exist whats the point?

The other retailers were welcome here until they had their dummie spit. Many was the time that we attempted to console at least one of them after his latest fish kill. While the manner in which Gary left was just childish and selfish.

Any organisation that was truly interested in being a representitive body should have at least approached Joel.

+10 Stuart

I think the idea behind the AP association is to the first point of call for new people to AP. Then once they have paid there due's and shelled out more for a few classes and maybe a book and DVD etc. Then they can find out that all they needed is free on most of the forums and the money they have used in there enthusiasm could of paid for there first system.

When I first saw the association information that was posted, I tried to write a response but had difficulty getting how I felt down in words. Basically I see very little benefit to anyone except the commercial interests involved. An informal association would serve better - I sure don't care if I get certified (besides the crooks are pretty good at certifying themselves online).

Publications? Sometimes they do things, like go places I can't afford to, and look at things I can't get in to see. A publication might be nice but you don't need an association to do this as Joel has already shown.

At this point I'm not at all tempted to belong.

P.S. I think Dufflight and others are on the right track.

There may not be a huge benefit to small hobbyists in joining an association of any kind unless you want to see something in the greater "industry" changed.

For instance, one goal I will hope to push forward if I were a part of such an association would be to try to get some better fish feeds out there. One lone person doing aquaponics at home buying only a couple bags of feed per year is not likely to have much of a voice with the feed companies getting them to develop more sustainable or NON GMO feeds. But, An association with more membership might be able to show a market for developing such feeds.

I personally think the web sites and forums and that stuff actually provide a pretty good platform for education and even some promotion for those who find their way to them but noting from the spikes in hits and activity on some of the aquaponic sites after articles and press on the topic of aquaponics, shows there is still room for promotion.

Having an association involved may be a good means of helping to get some aquaponics into more schools however, I don't know that the association is likely to have the funds to really make much difference there. I keep hearing people whine that they can't get an aquaponics system installed at this or that school but I know the schools around my area don't have the extra funds to buy the basic school supplies they are already lacking let alone buy/build a system.

As for certification or regulation of anything, well I don't see the association being able to do much more than research some best practice recommendations to promote for the time being. They may also be able to conduct some testing to see how effective such best practices will be at making food safe. If you are going to have certification, some one has to pay for inspectors and inspections. I do not see that happening based on the membership fees proposed at this time. Maybe they will look at it in the future but such things will cost.

As to what else the association might do, well it's hard to tell since it will be the members who will propose and vote on the actions that the association would take and until the association is formed it isn't going to be able to do much or even answer those questions.

All that is really being constructively discussed at this point is what recommendations for changes do people have for the proposed charter. They are looking at recommendations from anyone at this point so if you want to make an impact on the association without having to extend any money first, now is the time to do it since once it is formed and the charter adopted, I suspect changes to the charter will need to be made by vote of the membership.

So TC are you going to the conference since it's in Orlando?

Yes, I'm not only attending, I'll be presenting for one of the classes as well as my place being one of the options on the Friday Farm Tour list.

Having you involved TC gives me some confidence in it. I am still skeptical though.

I have to say that the structure for the association is probably too complex to start out and the dues or fees are probably not really enough to support such a complex structure in the beginning so my biggest fear is it will bog itself down in it's own complexity and have difficulty getting much done.

If it can get past that stage, I think there will be some benefit to having an organization that could pool some resources to get things done.

The forums and web sites are great for what they are, a great pool of knowledge where people can share and discuss but at the end of the day, no one on the forum is obligated to get anything done. So it may be great that some one comes up with the idea that oh, BYAP should run this or that trial but then BYAP is running said trial at it's own expense utilizing it's own resources and it is great that it does such things but they are not obligated to do it. Same thing goes for the "I have an idea" committees on any of the other forums or sites. Sure, I think all sorts of people should do all sorts of things, but my having the idea won't actually make them do it so for the time being, if I want something done I probably have to pay and do it myself. I can't afford to do too many of these things myself so I have to pick and choose.

Now if we have an association, well there is a chance the membership could put forth a motion for something to be done and if there is budget to do it, perhaps it will get done since there may be a larger pool of resources to put to such projects. Then again, members will probably also have to step forward to take on such projects as well since the officers won't be able to do it all but in these cases sometimes the person with the idea is gonna be appointed to a committee to take care of the project.

Being skeptical is not a bad thing either.

I dunno TC I think you may have an overly optimistic and utopian view of what such an organization may or may not do. As you point out, there will hardly be the money to do anything, certainly there wont be funds available to set up and trial things.

We had a certified organic feed here in Australia, there just wasn't the demand for it so I believe that it's not produced any more. Consumer demand makes things happen, bureaucracy bogs things down.

Lets face it, we live in a free market society and really whether we like it or not, that is the way to get things done. BYAP can run trials on our systems and monitor and publish results weekly online, and it's all done by us using our systems. Whether people choose to believe that we may or may not rig the results, or we are purely using it as a marketing tool for our products, is up to them. They are paid for by us under our banner, available for viewing by anyone who comes in here.

So lets say that an association decides to run a trial of something, supported and paid for by association members. Who's materials will they use? They certainly won't use ours if we aren't a member of the association. Will they buy from a commercial member, or perhaps rely on some donations from commercial members of their equipment? So trials would be run under the banner of the association, being open and unbiased, yet used as a promotional tool by individual commercial suppliers for their products to become part of the "industry standards" and recommended practices?

It's already started as a big commercial push with the launching of Sylvias book at the same time as the association founding, a logo almost identical to her commercial business logo, (though I see it's been slightly modified recently) pictures on the associations website are almost all commercial promotions, it's at the start of a commercial workshop being run by the other member. Seems like a wheelbarrow to me.

Who will join this association? Anyone wanting to get a leg up as a small or new aquaponic business, because they believe it may add some credibility to their own business because they can say they are a "member". Because they might be able to get their products promoted as industry standards or recommended practices/products within the industry.

It's obviously already "clicky" as to who is wanted within the organization and who isn't.

If an association is to be started to truly represent the industry then it should surely be approaching all known people within the industry with experience and knowledge in the field and preferably a few related qualifications in the industry. But then as has already been mentioned, there just really isn't a genuine need for it, I'm yet to hear of one real need that it will fulfil, apart from it being a handy vehicle for promotion of certain businesses within the industry.

I believe that I can do more good for aquaponics by continuing down the path I am at the moment. It's openly under the banner of BYAP. It is what it is, and doesn't masquerade as anything different. I don't have to explain myself to anyone, but my actions are always open to the free market and open public discussion, and everything goes back into the business and ultimately the industry anyway.

I'm sure my view points won't be liked or appreciated by some, but hey, sorry about that.. I've never really been one to tow the party line if I don't agree.. We will keep promoting aquaponics in every way that we can and we will continue to provide as much free information we can.

I think that covers it pretty well Joel.......

You may well be right about many things there Joel and I do personally like the way you run your business and site from what I can see from here so I hope you keep right on doing what you do.

Now all actions have to be self serving to a point or no one would do them. Like you said, you run your web site and stuff as part of your business and that is no secret.

The people driving getting this association started I'm sure they are hoping that such an association will help their businesses and I know that several of the other factors coming together at the same time were not only out of a desire for promotion (having a conference to go with the promotion of a book launch) but also convenience, the time/place of the conference being when they could get speakers from HI since they would already be coming here for the mainland training anyway and it might also be an extra draw to get people to the conference who might also be planning to attend the training.

These things are not necessarily any more sinister than your running trials or hosting workshops.

As to being "Clicky", any of that I think has really just been carelessness and some of the people involved being way too busy and not having enough time to have really thought enough of it through. There were for of them working on drafting the charter and I don't think they were trying to exclude anyone, they just didn't feel it would be all that reasonable to get many more people together on the righting of the first draft and then they announced it publicly. I don't actually know any of the history between you and Murray so I expect that has something to do with the heated nature of some things I have read and I expect whatever that is could trigger the "clicky" feelings about it.

Perhaps I am being too optimistic but I can't have any affect on the outcome of it if I don't get involved and while it may not get off the ground over there. It is trying to start up right in my own back yard so to speak so I think I should have a look see instead of ignoring it.

As to how productive the association will be, well that will totally depend on the people who join and either make it work or don't. We won't know that for a while yet.