Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I must agree.
1- those bundy planter tanks look really cool.
2- those bundy planter tanks look really impractical to harvest fish from.

Something I've learned over time, make everything as easily accessible as possible.

Yes an enclosed tank/grow bed system certainly has the child safety aspect incorporated within a single unit... and there is a niche for a product line for those with limited space....

And that's why BYAP supplies the "Balcony" or "Patio" system.... at half the price...



The question of child safety is one which I take seriously, and recommend accordingly to any potential customers... and suggest appropriate solutions...

Indeed it is an aspect that has been discussed many times here on the forum... and many solutions, cheap and easy... provided...

And I never said that the Basix product wasn't neat or tidy...


I wasn't putting the product down as such.... I suggested that in comparison to the BYAP courtyard system at around the same price... was IMO better value....

And I didn't even mention the BYAP "Balcony" system at half the price...

Nor did I make a big fuss about accessibility to the fish, and/or the limitation of the number of fish that could be stocked...


The "Bundy" Planter has been around for a while... and is actually probably a better and more well thought out design than all the other systems I've seen to date...

And I've seen... and been offered many... including...





Glen from Basix Plastix may well be a "fair dinkum bloke".... and he's recognised a niche that might help boost his sales... as is his right.... as it is for any of the others (as above)...


I could stock the BYAP "Balcony" system.. and will supply if requested... and would do so in preference to any of the others...

Not just because I'm a BYAP agent... but because I know it's backed by solid aquaponics experience and principles....

I choose not to stock the BYAP product as a standard line... or any of the others... because I think they are limited... and within even the price point that the BYAP "Balcony" system is listed... most people would actually go down the route of an IBC system....

So please don't put "words into my mouth"... or presume to question my motivations...

Yes I did make reference to the ever increasing number of "copycat" products coming onto the market... and questioned the actual experience of those that supply them...

A valid point IMO.... and frankly, as a supplier of the BYAP range, would you really expect me to endorse another competitors products over the range of product that I supply.... I don't know many "sales reps" that would do so....

Steerey.. please see the above... I can assure you that I constantly research the products available.... and physically inspect all that I can... and have done so with the Basix product....

And as I alluded above... I am regularly approached by various "suppliers" with regard to their "new" products... or at least receive a phone call or email from them asking various questions... that ultimately reveal themselves as a "new" product shortly after...




I'm totally in agreement with you regarding the safety aspects of aquaponic systems... and if after researching what was available, the product suited your needs... then great, I hope you get much satisfaction from it...

And I expressed exactly that same sentiment to Rosey... albeit in a private email...

Also Steerey... I'm just as dedicated to seeing people get into aquaponics... as I might be in terms of pushing my BYAP products...

And will happily conceed and advice anyone regarding a comaprable alternative... as I did for you...

Rupert I would think that all these alternatives are coming in because aquaponics is growing, and there is a large markup on grow beds and what not. So people see that they can make a good profit margin if they make a similar product.

I personally think that aquaponics needs to become much much cheaper before it will become too large. A system that would feed a family needs to get closer to $500 in order to convince people it's worth it to have the extra produce and ease. At $2000 or $3000 that it currently is for a system the size i'm talking about it's hard to convince people. Which is why the IBC line is such a good idea. $85 for me = a 4ftx8ftx1.5ft grow bed, as upposed to the $300+ sold on BYAP and other places.

I personally look forward to people coming into the market with less and less expensive products, or to see enough interest so that BYAP can get their products in more bulk (hopefully meaning much cheaper).

That's probably true for the rotomoulders that sell a product directly.... but the tend to price around the same level anyway...

And rotomoulding isn't cheap.... making up the initial blank alone can cost around $8000

Believe me... as a reseller... the margins on the products/systems.... are not anywhere "a good profit margin"...

Any real margin is in the design/consultation/installation....



You're telling me.... at around $2000 the market is a very "discretionary" buy at the best of times.... and these aren't the best of times....

And the market has always been populated by the DIY'ers... both for price reasons and the sheer desire to DIY....

It's darn hard to get the price lower, with a quality purpose made product....

Even the rainwater tank manufactures struggle to to turn out tanks of comparative volume for much less than the BYAP, or even the fibreglass tanks that Murray provides...

And often the quality, height/width and/or thickness either isn't comparable or as practical....

The stands provided in the BYAP systems, by neccessity are built with a degree of structural integrity, and hot dip galvanised to be rustproof and durable...

I've sought quotes locally to build them here... and usually found that they're actually cheaper, even with freight.. to just purchase the BYAP ones...

Add the hydroton media... along with the stands.... and that alone accounts for 50-70% of the system price....

The Chinese branding clay balls, while not quite as asthetically pleasing and/or uniform... are becoming much more quality controlled... and price attractive...

There was much mention in the early days of the forum of producing a $500 system... but ultimately the author that maintained that it could be done... produced a comparable range of product components... at around the same price...

Short of mass producing a rotomoulded product in China or somewhere else in Asia.. and ordering/shipping container fulls per order... there really isn't much margin reduction to be had...

Even the recent US aquaponic suppliers of comparable rotomoulded products ... are priced around the same mark...

I'm still surprised everytime I see a grow bed full of hydroton. Gravel is just sooooo much cheaper (maybe that's just a states thing?). I mean hydroton is cool, but I don't see the value.

It's too bad, because it's another thing that has a huge markup. It's like $100 per cu meter in bulk, but a few hundred to buy it in bags instead.

I have watched this thread with interest i am truley amazed at some of the responces
If you want a $500 system get of your bum and scrounge the bits and build one
I can build a fully functioning setup for as little as $300 am i going to do it No way
Since the news article there have been a steady stream of lookers when they see the pumps tubs beds ibc/s i have [ what are you going to do with them if you ever want to get rid of some i will have them ]
I have seen quite a few home built systems some excellent some [no comment]
Hydrotron buying in bulk so you are saying every little garden supply should have it in bulk
i have recomended to a person travel 10 km for a better grade of bulk scoria there answer was ;no way my mates got some screenings he pinched of the side of the road i will use that;
You only get what you pay for
Further to the argument if they made mercedes benz for $25000 a lot more people would be driving them
This is just a start

Please elaborate as to what system this is on level with that is twice the price ?


This is interesting Rupert that you are contacted regularly by the suppliers wanting to offer new products, do you keep a record of these anywhere so others that are looking at a potential new system have somewhere to check what is available on the market and the new products ?


Out of curiosity do you know what gauge steel these are made out of ?
like is it 45 x 45 x 6 angle steel or what size ?

Thanks

LOL

If it were all that cheap to put together and sell grow beds, everyone would have systems!!!!
I don't know where the huge markup is coming from. I did some research into rotomolded plastics here and it would be a huge investment for the initial mold and the company getting the molding done is probably not going to make much back on the products until after selling a truckload or so of the product so please don't think Joel or Murray or Sylvia or Backwater Provisions anyone selling these very nice purpose built plastic or fiberglass systems are making a large markup on these products.

I also don't expect most are making a huge amount on the media either since they are having to get whole container loads to get a good price but they are still having to pay the transport on the container and also store the product until it sells, all that really bites into the "markup". The only way you will really get "cheap" media is if you happen to live close enough to where it's manufactured and have a vehicle that can haul it and have a relationship with the manufacturer where they are willing to sell small quantities direct to you.

I don't know how one expects a "Family" size system to be priced at $500 since it costs me almost $500 to get a load of gravel delivered that is big enough to fill what I think of as a "family" sized system (That would be 600 gallons of gravel for a 300 gallon fish tank.) I'm not sure how I could sell that system for $500 when it costs almost that much for just the cheap river gravel and local delivery. A bulk order of some form of manufactured light weight media is going to cost $400-$800 just in freight within the US for a pallet load of the US made stuff let alone the actual cost of the media.

Sorry, my budget and business plan don't allow me to give away systems and I don't think any of the others are rich enough for that either. We want to help people grow food but we can't very well stay in business very long by loosing money.

a family system for $500 ??? tell him hes dreaming.
a 'proper' family system (feeding a family of 4-5 with 90% of veggies) would almost cost that in pumps alone! silkom have you looked into all the components needed to make a large AP system??

not only do i believe AP systems such as the BYAP ones are excellent value for money, they are also backed by years of experience, tweaking and consultation ( )

i have also never had anyone try to 'push' products onto me, from any store. infact i think joel even told me not to buy something from his shop at one stage because its cheaper over the net.



masterspoon wouldnt this be the equivalent of walking into mcdonalds, asking fro a cheesburger, and then them sending you to HJ's because there is also a cheesburger there you might want to check out? i would think that ROZ would look at what his cliet wants, and if a BYAP system can provide that, then great, if however, the client asked for something that a BYAP system could not effectively provide, then i am sure he would deal with accordingly. when i worked in a shop we would get approached atleast weekly with people floggin new stuff. keep the brochures and send them packing, because we were 110% happy with the equivalent products we were already stocking. . . .

Many people can't see the issues which experienced eyes might see. Those bundy systems are just plain poor design I reckon, and even if there was a local supplier selling them wholesale cheaply, we wouldn't stock them. You get a fish die up in the back corner and you have no idea it's even there, your fish start dropping off and you'd have no idea why. We had a fish die behind a pump once and not known it's there because it was hidden behind the pump, caused all sorts of problems with the remaining fish. A system like that is just asking for troubles...

A bit like this one a manufacturer offered us.



Nifty looking all in one system, only there's the downfall of not being able to see into the tank. The centre bit in the top growbed was set up as a swirl separator. Cool idea, but totally impractical in a system this size, and plumbing it in is just going to be a bit silly. So for us it's a lovely plant stand..



But of course there are other shops I know of who stock it and sell it as an AP system. They don't know any better, they don't have the experience, and hey, it's just another product to sell and make money on. Their poor customers don't know any better either they assume the shop has the knowledge to back it up

Interesting to think that 4 years ago there wasn't an aquaponic hardware supplier anywhere in the world, except I think perhaps aquatic ecosystems in the US may have had one small system available as part of their huge range for memory..

Gravel Vs Hydroton? Just depends on whether you are time poor of money poor for most people, though there are more pros and cons than just that. When we install a system for someone it would take 2 people 3-4 hours to do the gravel washing/shovelling/barrowing for 1 bed (yes we did it once in the early days), so at say $25 an hour there's $200, now thats not even covering our costs. Hourly charge to client would have to be more than that to help cover overheads, lets say $40 an hour labour charge.. 8 man hours at $40 is $320 + $60 for the gravel, $380 all up..

Then you are left with a heavy gravel filled bed which is harder to plant and harvest.. Clay takes one person perhaps half an hour max to move, fill and clean.. So $400 for the clay then $20 labour for half an hour.


We get it all the time, people wander into the shop, look at the prices, and scoff, mumbling that they think it's a rip off ... They will spend half an hour or more talking to the staff, asking them about how to set up their home made system. Wanting all the fittings they will need explained etc. They will grab a few lollies from the lolly jar on the front counter, they'll grab the big colour brochure to get a few ideas. They will then ask for a print out of the fish supplier list we have, so they know where to get fish. Then they'll go home and download the free mag, join the forum and ask more quesitons. Then they'll go down to bunnings and buy cheap bits and pieces, without have the slightest idea that we are actually cheaper than bunnings for almost every fitting and for pipe..

Then another trip down here with a few more questions about setting their system up, and finally they end up cobbling together some sort of a system..


A few weeks later they have a problem with the fish and they will ring us here at the shop asking what might be wrong with their fish. They'll scan the forum perhaps and ask questions where they will be told, you need to test your water. So a day or two later they head back down to the shop... To buy a test kit you think? No, they will have a bottle of water in hand, "Can you test my water?" And you know, some of them even get upset when we say sorry, we don't do water testing here, as though it's rude of us not to do it free for people...

Alright, there's my whinge for the day..

Help my fish are dying!

Of you bring a water sample in I will test it...

Water Testing now costs $75 and comes with a free test kit

BTW EB. I am now feeling guilty that I haven't spent enough money at the shop.