Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Opps... hit the quote button instead of the edit...

I dont know of anyone in Australia with succesful commercial AP experience. I include Tailor made in that because Ive been told that they are still running on grant money. Dont know whether it is true or not but even if it isnt I cant say that I'm attracted to their methodology.

Even on the AQ side of things we havnt found anyone we were happy to hand money to other than for equipment. Some of the desigin services that we were offered we had already completed. We knew how long it had taken us to do various aspects of the design and we looked at how much they were going to have charged us for doing the same work and we decided not to employ them for the aspects of the project where we hadnt done completed design work at that point.

The one piece of design work that we did ask for was the O2 system. We answered their questions on density, volumes, flows etc and they came back to us with a list of gear that we would need to buy and another list of gear that we would have to size and source. Not being familar with how O2 systems were designed we didnt feel confident completing the design without any knowledge on how to do so. So that was when I was when I volunteered to bone up on oxygenation and entered the lovely world of partial gas pressures and abosrbtion rates. If we had been offered a turnkey solution we when asked for it we probably would have bought it and been happy. Its not as if we dont have enough work to do getting this off the ground.

Not a major rant and spot on. It was Einstein that said words to the effect that "to do the same thing repeatedly and expect a different result is insanity", and this is what commercial agriculture has been doing for 6 decades. Commercial AP is following the same path which is foolish.

Basically the economic system within which agriculture (and AP, aquaculture, hydroponics are all part of agriculture) operates is fundamentally flawed. It is a rigid mathematical construct applied to a fluid biological system. There is a big crash coming as the artificial construct of economics meets biological reality. Agriculture is where this clash first takes place within the current paradigm. Which brings us back to the major shifts required in people's thinking.

If one fact puts the failure of industrial agriculture into perceptive it is this: in 1940 1 calorie of oil produced and delivered 2.3 calories of food, today it takes nearly ten calories of oil to produce and deliver 1 calorie of food. It doesn't take an Einstein to see this system is doomed to failure. Any system that runs on such an energy deficit is stuffed, and we did it in a generation.

AP is one of the solutions to the problem BUT it must operate within the financial constraints of a bankrupt system. Anyone contemplating a commercial venture would be well advised to plan for a systemic collapse of the current food distribution system within a decade or so. Large scale production systems that ship food thousands of kilometres are dinosaurs the world can no longer afford - economically, socially or environmentally. Just watch the price of oil over the next few years and all will be revealed.

The future of food systems will be small scale decentralised autonomous production systems within 100 km or less from the eaters. If you want an analogy of a resilient system think of how the internet operates - couldn't kill it if you wanted to. Funny that the internet was developed by the most top down command and control hierarchy, and it replicates a biological system. This is how and where I see AP fitting in, not with mega scale commercial systems that cover many hectares, but with smaller responsive and diverse units of production close to the consumers. So in margins between the current domestic scale and huge commercial.

Yeah, yeah, I studied economics too and know all about economies of scale, comparative advantage etcetera - but go back to the idea of the internet, where are the economies of scale in that system?? You can be the biggest one year and then not exist 3 years later, and the small company that tomorrow develops the 'killer ap' becomes the all conquering social media You-twit-face putting all others to the wall.

And for those that doubt the systemic failure I can only offer the words of George Santayana "Those who do not study history are destined to repeat it" - or words to that effect - end rant.

Comparative advantages change a lot when you start putting a price on waste and pollution that wasn't accounted for before.

Good post.

Michael, I agree with your economic predictions totally... and the ramifications for commercialisation are vast..

If, or perhaps when the economies of the world "crash".... then any "premium" price for "live" fish sales to restaurants... crash with it... because the numbers of people "dining out" will fall dramatically....

On the flip side... sales direct to the public could increase significantly... but so do the risks, and potentially the regulatory compliance and licencing costs...

A factor that almost everyone that talks of commercialisation... totally ignore....

Likewise, without the "economies of scale" to justify large volume vegetable sales to markets... sales rely on "farmgate" or "growers market" strategies.... which can be very labour intensive over and beyond a certain level of production...

And again, there is a health risk that can be associated... unless best practice and HACCP strategies are employed....

And I think any "commercialisation" of aquaponics must address such issues.... from the very inception of the business plan...

I'm sure that during any "transitional" period... both "big business", and governments... will impose such regulations on any burgeoning aquaponics operations... especially those that might be of a scale to justify success under the current economic situation....

This is really funny the comercial training thread now has the sustainability discussion on it.

An effect of more expensive oil prices could mean that economies of scale become even more important. For example the embodied energy in a 4kW pump is only a little smaller than the embodied energy in a 7.5kW pump. The embodied energy of a 30m3 tank that we have looked at is around 80% of a 60m3 tank that we looked at. In fact in almost every aspect of construction the embodied energy per kg of produce is significantly less in larger scale systems than smaller. Given that relative proximity to cities means that you can have a huge local market the furture of large systems is certainly not as bleak as you have made out. In fact the propects of larger systems look pretty good to me.

Our site is about 100km from Melbourne and on the face of that you may say that is borderline being so far frm the city but... Our altitude is 750m meaning that we are a lot cooler than the City and its surrounds meaning that the amount of energy that we would have to use to grow cool water species is reduced and more than balanced against increased transport costs.

Probably true Stuart.... but you need a market... and you need to be able to get the stuff to market....

Even selling direct to a market authority, or a wholesaler.... still means the labour and transportation costs to get the stuff there....

And the time taken to deal with that side of the business... doesn't directly and proportionally translate to increased scale....or at least... not necessarily in a positive way...

A "break even" hydro operation... would require at least 80,000 (say) lettuce per year... about 1500 lettuce a week...

You'd be lucky to get 80 cents wholesale... and probably 20 cent/lettuce profit at best...

That's about $16,000 profit per year.... and that's assuing you're not paying yourself and partner ... for working 8-10hrs/day... 7 days a week...

Stuart, embodied energy is only part of the equation, start thing total energy life-cycle audit and you get closer, then start thinking total energy in perpetuity......... But you are close to a big market for sure.

John, as for regulations HCAPP plans and the like. All I can say is that we are working on the changes right now. What we are pushing for to start with is outcomes based regulations rather than prescriptive regs. The changes outcomes based regs would deliver are huge and no more telling us how to suck eggs - when what we really wanted was the eggs hard boiled in shell!

Imagine if the regs said "we don't care how or where you process your fish (or whatever food) provided you do not exceed the following bacteria counts in your produce;........................ and the dept of ..... will periodically take random samples and test for compliance". The innovation that would be unleashed as we all started processing fish/chicken/rabbit/pigs/lamb and so on would be amazing, and provided there were affordable tests to check compliance, all would be good. The costs would come down too, as there would be no need for multi million dollar processing facilities. As for the compliance tests, they would drop too as entrepreneurs realised there was a market.

This will take a few years, but at least the regulators are listening - some even agree........

Don't have a problem with the direction of your thinking Michael.... I just think that if any commercilisation of aquaponics is going to be successful.... it must be based on "best practice.... from the start...

HACCP is not just a regulatory method... but a frame of reference... a thought process....

So many seem to either automatically rile against the concept... or ignore it completely....

Love it or hate it.... neither attitude will ultimately succeed....

P.S ... Michael, give me a ring please...

I see a lot of posts from (new to AP) that say they want to set up an AP system with the idea of going commercial. I would think starting with hydro and incorporating AP later would be an easier way to go. Gaining a background in the market place before trying new things.

Disregarding marketing, business aptitude, etc if commercial hydroponics and commercial aquaculture have operated successfully over many years why would commercial aquaponics not be successful?

It took nearly thirty years for hydroponics to become commercially successful... partly due to the same reasons that it will probably take aquaponics to reach the same level....

A plethora of "consultants" and "advisors"... with no real practical experience, or real interest in advancment of the industry.... swamping the burgeoning market with second rate products and advice.... and glowing promises of quick financial prosperity...

Hydroponics finally reach a point where scalability was resolved... and became profitable due to a developing market which attracted a premium price....

Over the last decade.... "big commerce" hydroponics operations have become prevalent... with economies of scale that can still be profitable with a less than premium price....

And the quantity of supply has driven the price return down anyway... which has in turn meant the even further increase of "mega" hydroponic operations....

Nearly all of the original "successful" hydroponics operations of the last twenty years... many around the Central Coast of NSW.... have now closed... because the scale and price return has now made them unprofitable....

Similarly... aquaculture has been stifled due to huge capital infrastructure costs and legislation.... and more recently rising power and water costs....

Aquaculture in Australia is basically static, or in decline... and has been that way for a decade...

Marketing, marketing, marketing.... Some of the people who have been in the AP business longer than everyone else are very poor marketers, as such they have slipped by the way side of late. Incredibly knowledgeable people, with vast experience of AP in many different areas, yet remain fairly low key because they aren't great at marketing.

Then there are people who are marketers, hardy any experience or knowledge about AP, but then that doesn't really matter, if you know how to market. You too can become a world renowned AP expert, all you have to do is say that you are over and over again, people start believing it.

Anyway, that's getting a little off track.

Has anyone thought of piggybacking off an established aquaculture business. Using the water from there grow out of fish to grow plants. Then the fish and feeding cost are not yours to worry about.