Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

good work EB
i think the name is quite adequate aswell

When I split the topic it said I had to give it a new name...

I tried to stay silent, but I can't resist...

I would have chose "cruuusty underwear".

I think everyone has had fish die. I had a good run and still have my first lot of silvers. But there have been the odd fish die. The last lot of cod fingerlings I would of lost more than half getting them the rest of the way onto pellets. But that ratio was better than the place I got them from. And the 300 silver fingerlings I got at the same time, I've not lost any.

There is a lot of kulling with fish. We don't see it but the 20 fingerlings we buy and put in a system would of started out a lot higher than that. Koi batches can be kulled back from a few thousand to 20 keepers.

+1, was reading last night about Golden Perch hatchery management and they said after the high amount that dont take the feed and die off, there is then only 50% that do well on the pellets, and they suggest culling those as they will never grow as well.

As much as we like to think that this is carried out humanely in every instance, knowing when the bottom line is at stake, and how other forms of intensive livestock are treated, I doubt it...

I reckon the average APer cares for (and about) their fish much more than intensive aquaculturists do. I think its silly to think otherwise. When your growing them for yourself and only have a small number to grow out over such a long period - every one is prescious.

I know Im only starting out and havent even got my fish yet, but after looking at everyone elses experiences I realise that mishaps happen, and am glad Ive been able to read about others experiences, so when it does happen (not if) I can understand its all part of the experience of AP and can learn from it... as a wise man once said... s**t happens!

+1 well said

We have established that fish can die in AP, and that fish can feel pain, but given that most fish are dying from what is ultimately a lack of oxygen (through various mechanisms) is it really painful?

The human equivalent of slowly reducing oxygen levels until the point of death would be carbon monoxide poisoning and having spoken to people who have almost died in this manner it does not seem to be painful or even unpleasant in any way.

I am the son of a farmer and grew up in farming community where the rearing of livestock for food is the main vocation, and I am all for animal welfare but if an animal raised for slaughter ends up dead via a humane mechanism what difference does it make how it dies?

Its not like we are taking fish from the wild who would have lead a natural life to put them in a less than optimal environment to risk death, these fish are bred to be eaten.

This juvenile tit for tat argument is clearly based on personal disagreements and has nothing to do with fish deaths or system design.

Yep, this stretches WAY back I'm afraid. Crusty used to be a member here about 5 years ago. There were some issues when someone joined his crayfish forum and talked about AP, linking back to BYAP.

Anyway, can't remember the exact events but after some kerfuffles his membership was canceled here.

Heres some early stuff, even GD posting here.. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=909&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Yeah, bit of a pity I bothered to react last night instead of just going to bed....

Funny how, despite claims that he couldn't register on this forum.. the poster arrived quick smart... and proceeded to post in a single thread with only an obvious desire to attack me...

Yet, having asked for an open letter to be posted on the HQ forum... so that everyone would be aware of the full context of what my response was... the request was declined... and an invitation offered to register a log in on HQ...

I did that nearly 24 hours ago.... and still haven't received a confirmation email that would allow me to actually post on that forum...

Wonder why... am I surprised... not at all....it's entirely consistant with the long history of that forum...

Throw shit.. and refuse the right to reply... or edit/moderate any response... selectively quote/misquote responses... and ultimately ban if you disagree...

Anyway, I've contacted the client concerned and directed them to the relevant posts...

Their response...amid a degree of laughter, and comment that I was definitely "not on someone's Xmas card list"...

Was that they was entirely satisfied with the advice given to them since the inception of the project, subsequent decisions relating to budgetary constraints and the likely impacts, the stocking of the trout and actions that might be required... acknowledged that I had outlined the possible constraints and accepted that the decision to go ahead was made by themself, and that actions taken and reasons for them following her departure... were fine by them...

And said that if they had not departed, they would have either eaten the stock.. or purchased an intended smoker and culled/smoked and refrigerated them...

The client also indicated that they would either, proceed with the purchase of a chiller, or a change of species in light of events... upon their return… ... as was always intended and/or outlined to the client… and that I should proceed as I saw fit to maintain the system in their absence..

The bit that really narks me is the new assertion that the poster boldly predicted that the system would fail... seemingly a prediction made only to themselves and/or an undisclosed "secret squirill" group of others... apparently based on the "design"… although from his last post on HQ... it would seem obvious that he has no idea of the operating principles of the "flood & drain" method employed at the site...and/or within the kit systems used...



And actually just made some assumptions based on their own aquaculture/RAS experience/perpective… which I'm happy to acknowledge... and perhaps some basis of comparison to a previous RAS, (and totally unrelated) system design within the same area...

Seemingly, despite the above... the poster is not only an aquaculture expert, but a thermal modeller, and an aquaponics expert...

To be clear...

I don’t expect that the poster is aware of all, or even any, of the discussions between the client and myself… or the budgetary constraints imposed… (and I can assure everyone that serious horse trading was involved)….but as such… any conjecture made in regard to any advice I offered… is just pure supposition..

I do not oppose the concept of external filtration and/or solids removal… indeed beyond a certain scale, and/or methodologies employed… it is often not only desirable… but mandatory…

But it does come with a cost overhead… which is often beyond what the purchasers of an aquaponics kit system are prepared to pay…

The question then becomes, do the kit systems available and principles employed…meet the desired outcomes within acceptable risks…
And I maintain, and a wide range of systems worldwide would seem to attest to… that they can….

As long as they are operated within certain stocking limitations…. And in that regard I have been consistent in my posts … and consistently opposed to any densities above 30kg/1000L… and even the moderator of the HQ forum, albeit privately, acknowledges that…

To suggest otherwise, as the poster has done is just not factual…
I consistently recommend lower densities than even the maximum suggestions to all my clients….

My home systems are not based around actual kit componentry, although I do utilise some grow beds… but I do abide by the general design principles…
My stocking levels have at times exceeded the levels I recommend to clients, visitors, and even members of the forum(s)… sometimes deliberately in order to test the limits, or verify suggested limits that others have suggested… sometimes due to expected short term stock holding…
And yes, at times that has caused problems, and (in relation to total numbers passing through my systems) sometimes small numbers of fish kills…

I’ve also lost fish due to equipment failure or natural events… often in my absence…
Could they have been avoided… probably… with an appropriate budget and time availability…

The fact that I may at times stock beyond what I consider safe levels for client kit systems… does not imply that I recommend that any clients do so… in fact it actually reinforces my advice not to do so…

Each time, such experiences hone my recommendations to clients…
All my home systems are currently being re-designed… mostly due to experience(s) I have learnt from over the last few years… as fast as time and budget allows…

Many an animal, and even fish… have been killed in the name of research and development… including the development of pond/sea & RAS quaculture systems… as they are & have been even in commercial operation…

As Netab posted, with the years of accumulated scientific research and resulting knowledge… putting together a RAS system within any budgetary or climatic constraints… is relatively easy…
And they almost always only proceed if appropriate budgets are available.

Backyard aquaponic systems are almost always budget constrained… and as such at times don’t incorporate measures that might mitigate against detrimental events…
And yes, there is a duty of care that revolves around the welfare of the fish in aquaponic systems… home based… or kit based…
And the kits available…are designed within such concepts… as long as they operated within appropriate stocking densities… some aren’t… and I take exception to the stocking densities that some people suggest…

I do not recommend to my clients that they stock beyond certain levels, especially in a new system… and I defy the poster, or anyone else to prove otherwise…

There is a possible “history” between myself, and forum members… and Crusty that goes back to early days on this forum…

viewtopic.php?p=24039#p24039

Those posts and others in other threads resulted in Crusty’s shortlived appearance on the forum…

And are possibly the reason for his singling out of myself.. as an “example”…. Although I believe it’s probably more to do with his recent appearance after 4 years of non-involvement in aquaponics… and his own recent foray into the “industry” of aquaponics… and an attempt to build an image of authority by denigrating others…

Frankly… it’s just not necessary… Crusty has built some well thought out, well designed and implemented system to date… within budgetary limits that many, including myself might envy…
He may come from a different starting point… but that point can only be sustained within a level of budget provision…

If you think you can design a better aquaponics kit system to meet the current backyard aquaponics price market Crusty… go ahead and do it…

I’ve seen various suggestions made in that regard by a few people through the years… and none of them has been able, or prepared… to do it…

Why not put your expertise to good use Crusty… rather than denigrating others… if you can achieve it… you’ll capture the market… and put all us no-hopers out of business anyway…

enough is enough. is there any way this 'crusty' can be banned (again) as his only posts have been on this thread, and all have a malicious intent, apparently solely directed at rupe.

then perhaps we can get back to doing what we all do best, building AP systems, eating veggies, growing fish, occasionally screwing up, telling everyone about our mistakes / wins and generally having a good time helping each other out?

Hope what I wrote wasnt taken the wrong way Simo.

The point I think I was trying to get across was that no-one hopping on to this site could possibly think that anyone is blase about their losses.

I worked in beef and dairy for years before returning to the family citrus property. When referring to intensive systems I was thinking of pig and poultry intensive cage/shed systems as I had watched some disturbing stuff the other night on the telly.

I completely agree with what you are saying ... and do agree with you - this guy just annoyed me with his attacks and I was writing without thinking about whether I was pissing someone else off with my badly worded spiel.

humble apologies

PS: +1 freoboy - well said

Ahh, I see , after reading the old threads I can see this guy is just an arogant roostersmoking know-it-all.

Just ignore him Rupe, his opinion is clearly of no consiquence.

I wonder if I can actually say "roostersmoking" on here, oh well only omne way to find out

Not at all Netab, I agree with everything you said and was meaning to support your points, sorry for the confusion

Say what on here Simo?

Ha ha good read that explains a lot