Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Agreed, I wouldn't go near either product... or any "pesticides"....

And other than using Dipel occasionally... I've not found the need anyway...

Away from the AP system, neem is a fairly good choices to deal with certain things. Neem oil is quite safe for people (many already use it in skin care products.) But because it is oil, it is dangerous for fish since they breathe through gills which if coated with oil will suffocate. Drawback with neem is that it will also negatively impact bees the same as garlic will.

The BT (dipel or thuricide) is great against the caterpillars and safe for all else.

I tend to avoid anything else since they almost all have either soap, oil, or warnings about them being dangerous to even us (and generally all dangerous to aquatic life and beneficial bugs.)

I've been using this as an all natural insect and fungicide. I haven't had any problems with my fish as of yet. I'll let you know as I test it more.

Looks like it's similar to EcoRose.. a product here in Australia.... principal ingredient for the treatment of powdery mildew... Potassium Bicarbonate....

Just has a few extra "oils" thrown in... probably more as wetting agents than anything else....

You might get similar results just by obtaining some Potassium BiCarbonate from a "brewing" or winemaking shop...

Don't know how the costs might compare though...

Looks safe enough...

There was a version of this being sold as a pesticide. The only difference was it didn't have the potassium bicarbonate. Price was the same, so I bought the one with the potassium bicarbonate, despite it being labeled as a fungicide. I think the wetting agent is lecithin. I used it to control a whitefly and aphid infestation. It reduced their numbers drastically, but not a 100% all out kill. I want to use it a few more times before I'm willing to vouch for it's effectiveness. Also those concerned about oils, even if they are non-petroleum herbal oils in small concentrations, need not try it.

The plants being attacked were already suffering from transplant shock and previous PH problems. A good pest control method I've not seen discussed on this thread is simply having good plant health. Proper PH, nutrients, water, humidity, temperature, and good genetics go a long way towards reducing pest problems. Most pests are opportunistic scavengers; if a plant is struggling, they eat it.

That holds true for fish health as well.... pathogens are opportunistic.... and disease is almost ALWAYS attributable to bad water parameters...

TC,

Separate.
Anecdotally and empirically, both substances are bad for AP systems in-toto, but separately quite OK it would seem.
I wouldn't use either in my system/s.
Fingers are good at squashing and distributing bugs, moths, caterpillars and grass hoppers . . . Covering is great for prevention and containment of any problem.
Just my humble opinion and experience.
Cheers IanK

I must admit that for the past 16 months I've not even use BT. I've plucked some bugs off of plants and fed them to fish but even that I've been kinda lax about.

I figure if I leave things to their own devices they will either survive and be better for it, or not survive and cull themselves from my garden. If something is too sickly looking I might cull it myself but I've been practicing very lazy gardening. Just try to keep water quality good and add a bit of iron when deficiency shows and occasionally some Maxicrop when I think of it and can get far enough into the shed to get some for the system.

It's been working well for me this year.

Hey hey, great thread this, lots of different experiences, good learning.

But way back at the beginning TCL mentions that iron sulphate is safe to use as a foliar spray, but it says on the box to not get it on the leaves?

Also what about sulphate of potassium, is that AP safe as well...?

I sprayed the aphids off some chili plants that I had, they have been pulled since then, but the water spray did just fine to get rid of them, that and a light scrubbing by hand.

Of course I just had two small plants to deal with so.

Iron Sulfate in moderation can work for a foliar spray (at least the stuff I used diluted appropriately was fine for spraying on leaves but you do need to be careful not to spray in such a manner that would burn the leaves.)

So it was mentioned a bit back that 'Neem oil' isn't AP safe, but if instead of buying it you took some neem tree leaves boiled it to make a tea out of them and used that wouldn't that work and be safe?

I'm not sure if a Neem tea would work the same as neem oil. I'm not even sure what part of the plant the effective neem oil comes from (is it from the leaves or seeds or what?) Anyway, it might be worth a try (though I would test the tea on a few leaves of each type of plant before I went spraying it all over the plants just to make sure that neem tea doesn't hurt the plants.)
It might not be as effective against bugs since may bugs are actually hurt by the oil (most bugs breathe through their bodies and the oil tends to suffocate them but oil can also suffocate fish and bacteria too so we don't use the oil in Aquaponics.)
So, test it carefully first before using it much and you could tell us if it works or not.

Neem oil straight off the tree contains both the oil which suffocates the bugs and azadirachtin, an insecticide. It may contain other insecticides as well. Neem oil comes from the seeds, so you could try making a seed tea. The neem oil you can buy here in the US has usually already had the azadirachtin removed which is sold separately.

I don't know the toxicity of either neem oil or azadirachtin to fish, but their toxicity to mammals is very low. Azadirachtin breaks down within a few days of being exposed to light or water.

Oil = BAD.......no exceptions to the rule with this one, oil floats on the surface of the tank water.

I don't know... I've been using herbal oils in small amounts and haven't found it to be a problem. Has anyone used any oil products and had fish deaths?

Same goes with insecticidal soaps (from potassium salts of fatty acids)... Web4Deb mentioned he had used some soap without any harm to his fish. So I've been using it with no problems so far...

The thing is concentration... I have 1300 gallons of water, with only less than a pint of oil or insecticidal soap being used. Thats 0.01%. I can't say it's safe, but my fish are still alive.

The azadirachtin in neem oil might be dangerous to fish. It's hard to say without some data on it. I know pyrethrins are toxic to fish. If someone is willing to try azadirachtin and it's safe, might be a good natural insecticide.

"The formulated product Azatin-EC is not expected to kill fish at recommended rates. The LC50 for rainbow trout exposed to azadirachtin is 0.48 ppm (11). It may cause significant fish kill if large concentrations reach waterways. It breaks down rapidly (in 50-100 hours) in water or light, and is not likely to accumulate or cause long-term effects (8, 11). "

http://www.neemuses.com/azadirachtin.php