Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

hey heyyy everyone, hope you're all having a good time.

I'm brand new here and have just recently been bitten by the AP bug and will be starting my system within a week or so. Just have a couple of basic questions and wanted to put up my design idea here for your approval/comments.

So I'm looking at making a small system to start, perhaps 20-25 Liters tops, fill it with feeder goldfish and worms. Now what I understand from the forums is that this means i must have at least 20-25 square feet of grow bed (please correct me if I'm wrong). 18 feeder goldfish and 3-5 worms will populate it and a couple of aquatic plants with them just to provide some added O2. The tank will also have an airstone that runs 24/7 to keep the water aerated. I won't be putting any gravel/stones in the tank as the nitrogen cycle needs to take place in the grow beds and not the tank ( again please correct). I'll install a filter, which I'm assuming is standard aquarium equipment, before the pump so get the larger solid matter, this will be later sprinkled over the grow bed.

The grow beds I'll be filling with gravel, probably pea gravel (if theres a better option do suggest it, but give me a picture as the names aren't known by the vendors here), and will be in a deep tray rather than in pipes. It will work on a flood and drain cycle operating through a pump fixed on a timer. The pump will be dripping water all over the grow bed through a cycle of pipes which have holes at appropriate distances and gravity will get the water out of the grow bed and back into the tank. I'm going to place it in an open area most probably so that it can get natural light, but will completely shade the tank from the sun so as to avoid algae.

That sums up the system I think, please poke holes in this plan if you see any :]. Now, on to my queries.

Aquaculture feed, I realize this is a very important component and that normal fish food may not be used, can you recommend any natural replacement for the product of specific brand names?

System initial cycling, this has confused me for a while now, what sort of initial cycling will the system require, I mean can I just pop in the fish and plant seeds in my grow bed and expect it to start working or do I need to put in the fish first and wait before planting or vice versa?

Planting seeds, this is a minor question, I understand the need for the gravel/hydrolite clay as the grow bed media so as to provide a biofilter and a solid filter, but is it best to plant the seeds right in the gravel as well? I have some rockwool that i was able to obtain ( you have no idea what I had to do to get it in Pakistan, you can't buy it for good money so imagine :/) so would it be better if I first germinated my seeds in some dirt/soda bottle greenhouse and then transplanted it to a cube of rockwool which will get placed in the grow bed?

I'm sure Ill have loads more questions once I start the system, but for now these are what confuse me, though I am in no way detered and will push forward in a matter of days

Much love,
Abdul Aleem

I wouldn't put any aquatic plants in with your goldfish. They will constantly pick at it until it's all gone. It's a waste of money imho unless you use a seperate water tank for your plants and even then make sure you throw in some little guppies to take care of the mosquitoes. You can get plenty of aeration from the air/water interface of the wherever you have water touching air combined with splashing from your return of water back to your fish tank.



I think the reason for not having gravel in a tank is to reduce the need for cleaning it. Fish poop/uneaten food will accumulate between/under the gravel and could create problems. I think that is really the thinking behind not putting gravel directly into the fish tank not since bacteria will grow wherever their is a surface for it to grow on and more surface area is always good for growing beneficial bacteria.



Make sure your filter is easily accessible as it will get dirty very quickly. I have about a 100 gallon small "pond" with 38 overgrown feeder goldfish in it and the filter gets nasty and the flow into the pump is drastically reduced in about 3 days. My feeders are about 3-4 years old.



Gravel works well although a lot of people use a type of LECA (Light Expanded Clay Aggregate) that comes in many names... Hydroton, Hydrokorrels... etc...

Here is a closeup of what that looks like:

[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/37262538@N03/4447985127/][img]http://farm5.static.flickr.com







Lots of people use what is called a Bell Siphon which uses gravity to basically flush the bed as if it were a toilet bowl once the water level is high enough to create a siphoning effect and then once the water level drops to a specified height the siphon is broken and then the bed refills... I'm assuming you're drain is on the bottom and you're flow rate from the pump is greater than that of the drain? If this is the case make sure you build in an overflow mechanism. Another thing i've seen here and there are people complaining about the mistake of using a pipe which has a diameter that is too small... I think 1.5 inches... err >38mm is the minimum you should use to avoid any clogging/flow problems.



Ahh the problems with line by line responses =P I guess I see how you plan on draining your grow beds. If you're just constantly sprinkling water over your grow bed and it never gets flooded, you might not even need a timer but you may want to play with this option. I think you might find yourself tweaking your system over time as you might do with anything that isn't exactly what a majority of other people might be doing with their system designs. I found myself doing that as mine is so weird and unorthodox! From what I've seen, a lot of users on this forum use CHIFT PIST. Constant Heigh in Fish Tank, Pump In Sump Tank with bell siphons in the grow bed to control the flooding/draining of the tanks combined with either timers or these devices that cycle/divert the flow from the pump to the grow beds as the pump runs continuously.



I think the best way to control algae is to have enough plants so that the algae doesn't have enough nutrients to "bloom" in your system. You will always get algae somewhere and the best reason from keeping your system out of the sun is to keep the water temperature more stable throughout the day/night.



Feeder goldfish are incredibly resilient/dirty fish. They have a very high tolerance for ammonia and other various other types of water conditions which might kill other types of edible fish that many users here are growing in their AP systems. Some people even use "humonia" aka they urinate in the system once in the very beginning to start the "cycle of life". The thing with a nitrogen cycle is that fish excrete forms of ammonia as does their waste. This waste is not good for them. In high enough concentrations it will burn their gills and eventually kill them. There are different kinds of bacteria (Nitrosomanas (convert ammonia to Nitrites), and Nitrobacter (converts Nitrtites into Nitrates). There are even bacteria that will convert the Nitrates into Nitrogen which will eventually just dissipate into the atmosphere. Fish can tolerate a very small amount of Ammonia, a little bit more Nitrite, and a lot more Nitrtates relatively speaking. From what I understand in a limited sense, Nitrates are what the plants will use for building blocks. There are also types of anaerobic bacteria that create compounds(siderophores) that bond iron (chelating it) to organic compounds making it soluble/more readily available to your plants in your AP system. I guess the whole point of cycling your AP is to prime the system... make sure all the unseen heroes that make it work in a biological sense are all ready to go so that your system is stable and the edible fish/plants will thrive with only minimal amounts of maintenance such as mechanically cleaning the goo off of your sponge filter and planting/harvesting your food.



So long as the weather permits, I think this is fine. Make sure the seeds don't fall too deeply into the bed. For very small seeds, you can loosely wrap them in a piece of tissue paper and put them in the bed. Just make sure the paper is biodegradable and the type that will quickly/easily fall apart.



Rockwool works well if you are using some deep water channel or pipes where there really isn't anything for the roots to initially grow through before they dangle into a nutrient solution OR you want to germinate them indoors due to the weather. I germinated my seeds indoors using these starter sponges b/c I live in New York and I wanted a head start on the spring. You can also germinate seeds indoors so that when you are ready to harvest a plant which is mostly edible, such as Spinach, its replacement won't be a little seed and it will utilize more nutrients... The nutrients that were being used/filtered by the plant that you just removed/harvested. If you're able to grow plants/food 365 days a year you can always plant Aquaponic/growbed friendly tropical plants or annuals such as tomatoes and they will eventually get to be enormous and provide fruit indefinitely. I've seen some cool pics here of people growing fruiting trees out of their Aquaponics in a greenhouse.

Good luck!

You don't need a filter. The solids aren't that large and will end up trapped in the gravel (which is acting as your filter).

I don't think you mentioned CHIFT PIST but that's the best way to set it up.

Nice reply Mikey!

Abdul,

25L is nothing and not worth playing with imho. You'll be lucky to get one edible size fish in that. 250L maybe? Bigger the better. However, you might want to start small to gain knowledge and discover what works well for you.

The ratio of growbed volume to fishtank volume issue is contentious. You need enough surface area, regularly under water, to provide a home for your nitrifying bacteria. When new or as fish growth kicks off, keep an eye on the ammonia level. If it is not turning into nitrites and then nitrates then you don't have enough surface area for the bacteria.

When mature, a properly filtered fishtank/pond has next to no ammonia present despite lots of eating/feeding because there's heaps of bacteria doing their thing. Bacteria activity however leads to a 'mostly harmless (less harmful)' nitrate build-up which in a closed system needs to be removed or diluted every now and again. You can either do water changes or cycle the water past plant roots as no doubt you've heard plants love this nitrogen rich water.

Depending on your setup there's a likelihood that you'll at some stage hit a nutrient deficiency. There's only so much poop your fish can produce. Consider this a natural balance. But rest assured that before you get to that stage, with enough fish, you'll get plenty of growth and produce.

Water source is important, aeration is important, fish food quality is important but all are pretty simple to provide really. Keep us posted on your progress. Pictures always appreciated.
Pete

Thanks Abdul.

BTW I broke my own link while writing my ramble =P. My bad, here is a pic of my LECA and organic sponge seed starter.

Hi Abdul,

Nobody has responded to your 25 liters of fish tank to 25 square feet of grow bed. If you have a ratio of 2:1, twice as much grow bed as fish tank, then a 25 liter system would need 50 liters of grow bed material. 50 liters of grow bed media spread over 25 square feet would mean a depth of .847 inches or a little over 2 centimeters. You're going to want a little more depth than that.

I have a 12 gallon system and will be upgrading to a 35 gallon fish tank with matching sump this month. 25 liters is 6.6 gallons and is about what would fit in a window. I have to be indoors due to the winters here so I have a small system. If you can do it outside I'd recommend a larger system even if it's only an experiment. If you are also constrained to the indoors, I'd still try starting with something twice as large (50 liters of fish tank).

You guys :'], I cannot put into words how much I appreciate the help and goodwill y'all are showing me, its especially heartening considering that I'd just been looking at/reading about your systems and then here you are helping me with mine, wow.

Anyhew, I have made some progress and your replies have pushed me further, I'll summarize what I've gotten and what I've understood from you guys here for convenience and to make sure I've understood it. I'll list updated questions concisely stated at the end so that its easier for you guys to answer them [:

I have acquired (read found unused in a friends room) fish tank, capacity is 25ish liters he says, I'll put up exact dimensions and pictures in a day or two. I realize, as Carrabis and Aquapete said, that this is quite a small setup but seeing as its my first I want to be careful. Regards the size of the fish it would grow, I'm at the moment aiming to get veggies out of the system rather than fish, God willing my future systems will handle those as well.

I've decided to go with 10 Goldfish tops to start with and up to five worms as the tank I have probably won't support more.

Regards grow medium, LECA or Hydroton is to the best of my knowledge unavailable here, I'm still looking but I doubt it, the picture is very helpful Mikey I'll be taking that along when I go to look for it. Pea gravel is easily available, however, I have also acquired (read as above) a whole bucket full of something called 'Silaca Sand' which an aquarium owner buddy has left over, its quite small but I feel it may do the trick. Either way I'll be germinating the seeds in a nursery (to make sure that any coating of pesticides sprayed on the seeds due to international customs regulations do not make it into the system) and then transplanting them in the grow bed in rock wool cubes.

The overall system design will be made CHIFT, I feel changing the level in the tank so aggressively might make the fishies unhappy. There will be a sump tank in between the grow bed outlet and the fish tank.I have made some sketches, will make soft copies of them and post as soon as possible.

Also, I intend on adding some form of medium at the grow bed water outlet or make it a very small outlet so that the water does not drain out of the bed immediately but slowly flows out (synchronized to the flood/drain cycle to avoid overflow of course).

The sump tank will house a bed of gravel populated by some more worms, these should hopefully remain happy here.

No plants will be placed in the Fish tank, good call on the fish eating them, and no gravel will be placed here either so that all the poopy goodies may go to the grow bed, gravel will be in the sump tank however to provide added surface area for bacteria and a standard aquarium filter will be placed just to make sure, the filter media will be squeezed over the grow beds as often as needed.

Regards fish feed, I haven't asked yet but aquaculture fish feed may be difficult to obtain, I was told by an aquarium lover that fish food could be made at home, he quoted feeding his frontosas with cow hearts with which they were very happy so I'm not overly worried on this front.

The pumps, piping, air stones, etc. are all available from aquarium supply stores, am going to go pick them up on Thursday. On Sunday I'm going to go to the flea market (called Sunday Bazaar here) and pick up something suitable as the grow bed tray. Tomorrow I'm going to try and put some seeds into some form of a nursery and start germinating so that they're ready once the system is.

So thats been the progress, now the questions stated clearly (concerning issues I couldn't find answers in the forum for) and the status, all for the viewing pleasure of many readers [;

1. Is Silica sand, a commonly used gravel form in aquariums, suitable as the grow medium?

2. Can you use of the shelf fish food to feed your fish?

3. Can you use fish/water that has been in a system being fed of the counter fish food? Won't this introduce the synthetic chemicals into your system?

4. Will worms survive by themselves in gravel in a sump tank that has a varying water level?

5. Any seeds imported/exported from countries have a coating of something like Thirum or Capitan to prevent diseases, can these seeds be used safely in AP as it is a purely organic way of growing?

6. Once the nitrogen cycle is established, checked by the presence of nitrites and nitrates in the water, and the pH has stabilized, then the system is ready for the plants, true of false?

7. Don't the veggies smell/taste of fish?

8. @Carabis: 50 liters of grow bed material? You mean in volume or uhmmm *confused* also I'm aiming for a depth in the grow bed of 30 cm, I read on the forum that is ideal?


Project Status:

Fish Tank: Acquired
Pumps and piping: To be acquired Thursday
Grow bed: To be acquired Sunday
Grow Media: To be acquired as soon as decision between pea gravel and silica sand made
Plants: To be put into germination tommorrow
Fish: To be acquired once grow bed and media are in place along with fish tank

Sorry I can't answer all of your questions but I will try to address some of them.



Yes the worms will move with the water level. Red Wiggler worms work best as opposed to Earth Worms. Red Wigglers can be found under leaves and decomposing plant material as opposed to Earthworms which love living in the soil so the Wigglers are more suitable for a changing/moving environment.



I believe you can plant plants such as lettuce immediately... The day you turn on your system. Most plants (if not all) don't use anything but water in the first few weeks of germination. They usually come with their own food storage which is what those first "odd looking leaves" usually are on something like a bean plant. Depending on the plant/temperature, your seeds might germinate just as your system is cycled and will use up any nitrates in the system even if it isn't fully cycled by the time the plant is ready to take in nutrients. If you're working with seedlings that were bought from a store then I'd wait for the system to be cycled otherwise don't worry about it.



No. Just ask yourself this question. Do veggies taste like dirt? If you've ever read about hydroponic systems that use synthetic nutrients you sometimes hear people talking about the fruits having a mineral like taste. I've never heard of that with organic nutrient sources. Aquaponics is like a fish powered organic hydroponics system.

I'm not sure about the availability of stainless steel scrubbing pads in Pakistan but I use them in my system as they have a tremendous amount of surface area for the volume that they occupy. Other than the pvc pipes and polypropylene buckets that I use I am a bit paranoid about other kinds of plastics leeching chemicals into the water and being absorbed by the fish/vegetables.

Check out this link: http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7077&p=222784&hilit=stainless+steel#p222784

HawaainNewbie and daddykirbs have a link/pics for nice homemade designs for a do-it-yourself biofilter

Thanks mike whatever you can pitch in helps

The scrubbing pads are available, the same scotch bright ones are too I believe, I think I'll even recommend them for my friends aquariums and get some good data on how they perform from there.

Red wrigglers are a check, I think some of the worms I've seen in aquariums have been red with black stripes those I can get.

The plants I'll germinate till they sprout and then plant them immediately, considering your opinion they should survive and I want to be able to see them from day 1 so I don't have to suffer through waiting and wondering if they'll germinate, if they're going to die I want to at least be able to SEE them doing it [;

Thanks Mikey

When people talk about how much grow bed you need compared to how much fish tank you have, those numbers are usually measured in volume.
So if the fish tank is 25 liters. You should try to get at least 25 liters of grow bed going, if you will have a sump tank to deal with water level fluctuations, then 50 liters of grow bed would be even better.

As you have obviously found in your reading, many aquarium type fish foods are developed to minimize the need for water changes in regular aquariums and therefore don't provide as much nutrients for the plants. The higher protein feeds will generally provide better nutrients for your plants. Don't let little things stop you, especially for a small starter system like this, you will still manage to grow stuff.

Your plan for an air stone in the aquarium with 24/7 aeration is a good idea, extra aeration is always a good idea, especially when getting a new system up and cycled.

When we talk about cycling we are talking about the nitrogen cycle and getting the bio-filter bacteria established. This usually takes as much as 6-8 weeks (it can be quicker with fishless cycling but it usually takes longer with fish in the system since you don't want to kill your fish by overfeeding them in the beginning.) I recommend reading the basic info and useful info sections of the forum for detailed explanations of these things. As to when to plant, you can do that as soon as the grow beds are filled and you have them flooding and draining properly. Many people plant seeds directly in the gravel.

This brings us to the gravel. Pea grave describes the size. The important thing about the gravel is to find out what kind of rock it is. Mainly, you want to avoid rocks that will affect pH. Lime stone and marble will affect pH and are generally to be avoided. Pea gravel that is granite or quartz types of rocks is just fine. Smooth river gravel is fine too. Lava rock is great though a bit tough on the fingers when digging in it. That brings us to the stuff you mentioned, I'm guessing it is probably too small. What you want is gravel between 3/8 and 3/4 of an inch which would be 1-2 cm. Anything smaller is going to have a tendency to stay too wet and/or clog with fish poo and roots.

Several times you mention aquatic worms. I'm not familiar with them.
When most of us talk about worms and grow beds, we are talking about composting worms and earthworms. Composting worms live very happily in flood and drain grow beds and they will also survive nicely completely submerged so long as the water is very well aerated.

For a small system, I think running the pump on a timer and having the grow bed drain slowly while the pump is off is just fine. That would be called timed flood and drain. You should be able to find a diagrams thread in the Useful Information section.

Seeds. The only real danger with treated seeds is if the treatment turns out to be bad for the fish. Otherwise, the only harm is if your desire is to follow pure organic practices. Aquaponics is fairly organic by nature simply because most chemicals would be bad for the fish and bio-filter bacteria, as far as going pure organic, that is going to be a personal choice you make. Fish feed, well unless you make your own, I don't know of many "organic feeds" If it doesn't kill the fish, it probably won't kill the bio-filter. Then it is just what risks you personally wish to take in using the feed in your food system. I will recommend that you avoid any aquarium medications or water treatments since most of those are not safe for food systems and many can cause cancer.

You will want an aquarium test kit to check certain things in the water. The water tests you want include
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
pH and high range pH

Temperature is also a handy thing to track

good luck and have fun with it
Welcome to the addiction

Hey hey been a couple of days but I got quite a bit of Progress :] will list it below as clearly and concisely as I can. I've also got pictures will upload them with comments in the following post. Today in the evening I go to the Aquarium supply place and get my pumps and everything.

FT: Got a fish tank size 17 3/4"X 11 3/4" X 18", will not be filling it with gravel. If I can figure out the overflow SLO tube thingy in the CHIFT PIST then the system will be that, otherwise will just make it CHIFT. Got a table about 3 feet high to put the tank on too but no picture of that.

ST: will be just a big bucket, got an extra one lying at home

GB: Have gotten info about an agro supply store that sells plastic grow beds for plants to grow in dirt, can get any size I want I'm told will be getting one just a little larger than the FT volume, large as I dare make it as I intend on setting this up in my bedroom next to the window.

System Location: in the corner in my bedroom, will get plenty of sun there, will have to keep a window open to aerate the room though I think, and maybe not smoke so much in the room:/

Grow Media: I got in touch with a cousin who is a contracter, he told me the pea gravel I would get here would be made of limestone or marble, so I rejected that and right now there is three quarters of a cement bag full of river rock, 14mm average size waiting at his house, picking that up tomm too, hopefully will be enough or can get more, at no cost even

Aquarium supplies: will get tubing and pumps tomm, have decided on one air pump, one filter and one water pump. have got about 20 feet of 1" PVC at home so that will make up whatever balance is needed, planning on using mostly flexible tubing whereever I can. Might not get the test kit though, might not be available.

Cycling: Plan is to run the system with additions of water from friends aquariums and slime from their filters for at least one week, maybe add some seasol or clear ammonia (if I can get it easily) after which I'll plant a single bunch of seedlings which my Mom has, lots of pics of her plants and her seedlings are below, and add two fish. WIll continue to add one row of seedlings and two fish every week as long as nothing dies.

Fish food: am planning feeder goldfish to start, so will use whatever high protien pellets I can find at the store and supplement with things like cows heart or eggs.

Buffering: will get a bag will of shell grit, and add a couple of egg shells to the ST.

My to buy list from aquarium supply :
Tubing + pumps (Air, filter and water)
Seasol
Sea Salt
Test kit
Thermometer

Questions (hey the last set of questions din't get all answered yet :[ )

1. If I can't get my hands on a test kit, is there any alternative/homemade method of testing my water?

2. Can you give me a clear link to the SLO and the overflow in the FT in CHIFT PIST systems? been over and over the forums but can't find one.

3. Do plants need darkness hours? I'm awake till dawn usually so will the room lights being on affect their growth/health?

4. Anything on the to buy list missing or major flaw in the updated plans/progress?

Much love you guys [:

Abdul Aleem

Okay so I tried uploading them but apparently they are too big, so I'm uploading them on facebook and giving the link here, all relevant photos are uploaded and captioned there. If someone can tell me how to resize them I'll put them up for everyone's convenience?

Link to pictures: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1 ... 5833&saved

If it doesn't allow you to view them just friend me and mention BYAP I'll add you

Don't forget a timer for the pump.

And your light probably isn't bright enough to bother the plants.

Lots of progress these past couple of days, got pretty much everything to put it together, I think in between today and tomm i should be able to finally start the initial cycling.

Many thanks to everyone who has thrown their two cents in so far, I'm sure all of this would have gone much slower and been much harder without your inputs [:

now i can't seem to get my hands on a test kit, am trying to get a friend to bring it from abroad but if that doesn't work then if there any homemade/DIY alternative?

The timers are also prooving a pain to find and are quite expensive (PKR 2500 minimum, thats about under USD 30) so i'm going to look up a timer diagram on google today and go to the electronics market here, I'm told might even get a kit to build a timer circuit there.

Am putting up all the photos in the next post, lemme know what you guys think

For more detailed pics you can follow the facebook album link I gave above and take a lookit them there :]

One of the two aquariums that will be donating water and filter slime to startup my system


Food being fed to donator system, I intend on using brine shrimp or some for of homemade high protien food, please recommend one if you know a recipe.


Big rocks just lieing on my roof, these go into the FT to provide surface area and a place for the fish to hide/play


My mum's plants, need my system to grow faster/better than these


Mum's rooftop garden, will be transplanting cuttings from here eventually


Mum's orchids, these I really want to replicate


Mum's garden on the ground, this will also be donating to the cause


Seedlings in mum's makeshift plant nursery, just a shady alleyway next to the wall in the back