Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

There is plenty of political will - what in the world do you think the Cap&Trade bill is?

Some people don't have much of a choice but to drive what they already have (a 12 mpg vehical that they have had for 12 years). I know my daughter at college won't get much of a choice - she will get my 1998 12mpg truck when it is time for me to get a new one.

What is the price/gallon that will curtail her driving?

CJINVT- I'd LOVE to alter those mis-spellings... it was probably late, or early, or I wasn't thinking, anyway I have not found a way to change them. I read the FAQ which says if someone has posted then only a moderator or admin can change a poll so... I ask either someone with the power to change the spellings do so, or grace for my lack of literacy.
The only thing I know for sure is that it won't be the last time!
Respects,
Tony

I thought cap & trade was about limiting emissions/pollution to some set amount, then letting business buy or sell extra tax credits. Seems different from, say, a 50 cent tax per gallon of gas to curtail driving.

Any idea what cap & trade would add to the price of gas?

Interestingly the fall of civilisations most often occurs with the demise of their agriculture system
The demise is invariably through the long term use of irrigation that causes high soil/water salinity and high water tables. Areas around the world that have been under irrigation for the longest periods show the greatest decline in water and soil quality, does this sound familiar!

First off - there is already a federal gas tax, and the feds missed a great opertunity to up it when prices had fallen to under two dollars just before Katrina...now with prices on the rise again - they will have a hard time upping it.

The cap&trade bill essencially ups the price of all manufacturing. Two things will happen there - for some businesses, the cost will just be passed along to the consumer...electric plants are a good example there. For other businesses, the cost will be so high, they will be forced overseas or out of business. Take for example the steel industry (which uses massive amounts of electricity and creates lots of emmissions). So the inflated cost of electricity and the mandate to buy credits - american steel prices will skyrocket. If american steel is now more expensive then steel from china, where do you think the car companies will get there steel from. That whole industry will shut down. Well has it saved the environment...not at all - if anything it has made it worse as china does not have near the EPA standards we have. This same example can be applied accoss the board.

MIT did a study on the revenue that C&T would create. If I remember right it would generate some 360 billion for the government. Now - where does that money come from? From the general population. Businesses do not pay - they just slide the cost on. It is a TAX behind the curtain. So what does it all mean for you and me. So you take that numer (360 billion) and devide it by the number of people and you come up with about $3000/year per person.

Will it curb energy use - of course. But it will also destroy the nation. This is a bad bad bill - and that is why it is stuck and has not been passed yet. But if health care is any clue as to the length the elected offical will go to to get the bill passed, we can be assured there will be plenty of earmarks and backroom deals.

Rant over...

How about tax and dividend? Double the price of fuel (roughly, since it would vary with C content) and give the $ back to citizens, say $3000 each per year? No special interest benefits, no government windfall, no hidden sneaky loopholes. It would reduce oil imports, reduce pollution, reduce driving, etc.

http://www.capanddividend.org/?q=readfirst/versus
http://stoft.com/p/83.html

Nice idea when you think about average people driving to work and back, but how would that effect Truckers and freight carriers....in that case again it gets passed on to consumers. Win or no-win, you make the call.

IMO - energy use is all about education.
Mark

I agree... cap & trade is just all about generating revenue... for governement and the financial sectors...

It's simple... big business has made substantial profits for years by deliberately avoiding environmental and ethical obligations...

Gve them a "honeymoon" period to clean up their acts.... then tax them, or fine them millions for continuing to pollute...

Yes, there'll be some short term pain.... but real long term gains.... anything else is just bullshitting and window dressing...

And the bottom line is... under any "cap & trade" system... it's just that.... "capping" levels at about 2005 emmision levels... not rising anymore.... but sure as hell not lowering the levels...

There are technologies available that could clean up emmisions substantially... a one time cost impost, that sometimes even results in a revenue neutral position from reclaimed substances....

I'm dubious about cap and trade. It's a system that worked well for reducing smokestack emissions associated with acid rain, but there are just too many sources of carbon emissions for it to work well. Not to mention the trading in carbon credits is already pretty sleazy. I'm with Hydrophilia - a flat tax on carbon extraction is a much fairer way to reduce demand. And the rest of the country could catch up with California in terms of the energy efficiency standards for new construction. That's a simple place to make a big difference.

I'm not sure what you mean by "nature adapted". Certainly ecosystems change in response to different conditions, but the issue with human influenced changes is the *rate* of change. We've more than doubled global human population in the last 50 years. Even if you doubt our ability to change climate on a global scale, humans are certainly changing ecosystems on a local scale. Case in point is decreased rainfall in the Amazon basin as a direct result of conversion of rainforest to agriculture. Or take loss of biodiversity. We're in the midst of a human caused wave of extinction that is comparable to the rate of extinction associated with the demise of non-avian dinosaurs at the end of the Cretaceous.

And current understanding of climate change is based on much more than temperature records over the last 200 years. There's very good records of atmospheric CO2 concentrations over the last 650,000 years from antarctic ice cores. CO2 over that period has ranged from 180 to 300ppm, and is clearly correlated with temperature. (More CO2=warmer temps). Current CO2 is 387ppm, and increasing rapidly. (Current levels are 103 ppm (36%) above the 1832 antarctic ice core levels of 284 ppm) In other words, the rate of change is extremely fast compared to past changes. Really, if you want to argue that humans can't change global climate, you'd better be able to explain the mechanism that will prevent all this extra CO2 in the atmosphere from changing temperature, with the resulting rise in sea level, etc.

What is it we should be educating?

If the bankrupt state of California is such a great model, why are people and businesses leaving in droves for places with lower taxes and fewer regulations?

Conservation 101. And it has to be done in the home - we cannot count on the public school system for it.

Yep - that's my point - man changed things faster than they could adpat to - nature survived, man didn't


Yep - the people that cut down the trees there are now feeling the effect - same point.


Really - as a geologist, everything I've read and seen indicates that 90% of life on the planet was wiped out at that point in time - nothing I've seen recently indicates we're going through anything like that.


OK, so CO2 has gone from 0.000284% to 0.000386% - assuming nature can't cope with that is unadulterated arrogance - it's why supporters don't express the numbers as absolutes - it kills the argument.



Happy to - greater density of leaves on trees, more algae in the ocean which is where 60+% of our oxygen supply comes from anyway. It's a natural sequence - warmer ocean temps promotes more algae growth - it's how nature has coped in the past and will continue to do so. When the temp starts to cool off again, the algae dies off - nature adjusts.