Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I sit back and smile and wonder how many times we have to tell him that 2 ibc/s is the way to go for a sump before he finaly listens
2IBC/s 2IBC/s 2IBC/s 2IBC/s 2IBC/s 2IBC/s 2IBC/s 2IBC/s

+1
or +9 as it may be.

But play nice Milne. IBCs are expensive and he probably doesn't WANT to despite knowing that he has to.

Almost finished the sump hole measuring 1350X1350X1000 tonight. I had heaps of "help" from my kids, who loved to "help" dig in the hole! Another 1hr or so of uninterrupted digging should do the trick tomorrow.

With regards to the 2 IBC sumps, after much consideration, I have decided to go with just the one sump and the 500lt tub. Looking at the space I have and plans for the rest of the yard, there will be no where to expand the system in this area of the yard. If anything, I could reconfigure my current system and go to a 900lt Ft and 900lt GBs (currently 750-800FT and 650GB) using the remaining olive barrels as GBs.

I know, I know 2 IBCs man 2 IBCs! But As Kuda said, I don't want to, but know I SHOULD!

Going by my maths, just the one sump would do the job, (just) so having the tub as a secondary would work fine. Maybe I'll have the secondary sump fully drain, giving me at least 1500lt. The IBCs hold a maximum of 1300lts if filled to the brim, so 1100 plus the tub at (max 600lts) 500lts will give me 1600lts maximum sump, allowing 100lt on the bottom for the pump not to run dry, gives me 1500lts.

Forgive my ranting guys and girls, I just need to justify to myself that I don't NEED to put in 2ibcs (even though I know I SHOULD to be safe).

Once again, please comment and if my maths is out and it turns out that I do NEED to run 2ibcs as a sump then I'll bight the bullet.

Thanks for the contributions and 'digs' All have been welcome!

Quachy

Question about the IBCs I thought they were 1000 liter containers. To me that usually means 1000 liters if filled to the brim but I've never handled any IBCs so I don't really know for myself. Just my experience that most containers that give a volume rating, the volume rating is usually only accurate when the container is filled right up to the brim. So that 500 liter tub, if it is being sold as a 500 liter tub, in my experience is never going to hold a full 500 liters.

I could be wrong here since I don't have direct access to any of the things you are planning to use and I'm judging from my experience with bins and containers here in the US. (As in what is sold as a 50 gallon aquarium actually only holds 40 gallons of water or something like that.)

Look at things this way, if you go ahead and sink two IBCs as sumps, and connect them together, you will have the extra sump space you wanted for growing out marron or yabbies or whatever. While if you push yourself to the limit trying not to use two IBCs for sumps, You will likely have to re-do some things or add another sump container later to deal with the shortfall.

Two IBC's as sumps just mean you have to save up a little longer to get another one to add in as fish tank later. See there is nothing out there that says you can't have a sump tank bigger than your fish tank. My original big in the ground fish tank has become my sump tank and I even keep a few fish in it since it doesn't drain all the way down.

If you're flying close to the limits of your system design then you have to be very careful with your computations to include all of the factors of your water and where it will be at all times.

I, for example, am pushing the "design limits" with my intended system upgrade, using CHIFT PIST on a timer:
1 x IBC FT
1 x 500L sump
2 x 300L GB

On paper this looks "barely OK" but there are some realities to deal with, namely:
The volume of my pipe work from the pump in the sump to the FT will be about 56L.
The "tide" in the IBC will be slightly more than the diameter of the SLO outfall i.e. 50mm which equates to about 57L (in my bottle, not all IBC bottles are the same).
The volume of the pipe work in the SLO to the GB will be about 65L. (I am negating the water in the GB drains as this is considered in this value.)
The water volume of the two GB is 40% x 600L = 240L

Assuming this is the worst case, 418L will removed from the sump, leaving only 82L or less than 17% remaining in the sump. If you are going to use larger diameter piping (highly recommended) these figures will become even more relevant. I will need to ensure that even over a hot summer the sump is full on completion of every cycle My pump can very nearly suck dry and completely empty the sump, so I MIGHT be ok as there should be about 80mm of water remaining, but I am dubious and am already trying to convince SWMBO that I need to have a bigger sump or additional sumps. She is not amused that I am re-designing already, but then she definitely isn't going to be amused when I implement the current design and it doesn't work!

Systems should, in theory:
Be simple but idiot-proof, bullet-proof and fail-safe;
Contain room for error;
Be easily expanded; and
Minimise running and other on-going costs.

By adding some switches to the system to fill each GB in turn, I could save 120L but this will also add points of failure. If I was going to continuously pump ($$$) then I could add water into the system to keep the whole system filled, but then any interruption will mean the system will overflow as everything drains to the lowest points and will require more time/technology/$$$ to get re-started again.

Yes, there are "things" which can be done, but each adds complexity and cost. Remember: For every component added to a system, you need to add its redundancy and the logic to determine when the primary has failed.

I will add +1 to the voices suggesting you install larger sump capacity from the start. As 'they' say: "Measure twice, cut once." Or, in other words, "Design (well) once and avoid digging twice!" I just wish I could easily add to my own design without adding complexity, weakness or expense. (It is much more costly to later modify instead of building correctly from the start.) Giving yourself more room to play with at the start will allow for simpler design, cheaper running costs, a harder system (hard as in hardened) and better facilitates future expansion.




Scott

Some ideas that could perhaps help (but will of course cause you all sorts of re-design in the thinking about it) might be to have some extra containers who's tops are level with the tops of the Sump tank be plumbed in like additional sump tank volume but add gravel to them so they would also be grow beds, assuming the sump will fill to near the top when full and drain at least half way these containers would flood and drain with the sump fluctuation.

Now these would not give huge amounts of extra sump volume because they are filled with media but they can essentially kill two birds with one stone so to speak because they will also provide extra grow bed.

Big challenge is trying to get everything level and plumbed together at the right heights underground so this method might not be so good in difficult digging locations. And if you were to install them too high, they might not get much water if you start running your sump high water level too low. Anyway, here is the diagram of the idea.


I'm sitting here looking at buckets that I will be doing something with which is what gave me the idea of the shape of the gravel filled extensions.
Part of my fascination for media filled sumps (or sump beds as some of us have called the idea) is that I'm in a heavy rain location (well sometimes we get heavy rain) and an empty container sunk into the ground can sometimes come out of the ground with incredible force if water fills the ground and hole outside the container. However, if a sump were to be filled with gravel, this probably won't be such a problem, but then there are the challenges of making a place for the pump and the fact that you then need to balance the sump bed and regular grow beds more accurately or the sump beds might either be too dry or too wet all the time (this could be a good thing or bad thing depending on how you work it all out.)

TCLynx, I like this idea! Will play around with my design this morning.

Plan version 2.

The sump growbeds will be at ground level and will require a measuring and remeasuring to ensure they are plumb with the fill level of the main sump. I like this idea TC as I can make use of the 2 extra growbeds I have (which are 600lts tubs, but I have been working on 500lts usable). Once again total sump level will be at the 1500lt mark which gives me about 200lts margin.

With this config, I will have a narrow walkway in one section, it will be about 700mm wide at max and 650mm min.

With the pump, I am looking at getting a sump pump operated on a float, any suggestions?

Should I go sump pump on a float or 24/7 low wattage pump? Looking at commercial systems that run CHIFT PIST or similar, they seem to have a 24/7 pump, but my concern would be running the sump and pump dry.

Quachy

For CHIFT PIST, I think you will probably need to either go timer and stand pipe operation or run the pump constantly and use siphons on the grow beds to get the flood and drain.

I don't think you can really do float switch operation with just one pump (might be possible but getting the balance right would be really tricky and evaporation or rain would mess with it all the time.) Though you could install a float switch that could shut off the pump if the water level gets too low and you are risking killing the pump (However, if running siphons, and the water level gets low, the pump might shut off leaving your beds partly flooded and it won't work again till you top up the system) but you might be better getting a pump that has it's own overheat protection. Or what I've done, add a float valve to top up the sump tank if the water level gets down below the normal low water mark but still above the pump burn up level. That way, when the system needs topping up, the float valve will take care of it.

Just bought a Bianco dirty water pump BIA-JH 550-B. On sale so pretty cheap for what you get. 9500lt/hr and at 3m should be around the 6000lt/hr mark if not more.

I checked out Lungy's thread, (bummer about the fire) and seems like he had similar sump issues/thoughts. I like his idea of the tubs under the grow beds and have decided that I will be doing this.

If I go with 150lt tub per gb, then that will give me and extra 900lts for the sump. I will equalise the tubs to the max water level mark in the IBC sump so no water will actually sit in the tubs unless the sump gets completely full, unlikely with the pumping capacity, but may happen in a power failure.

I have buried the IBC with some sheets of iron on each side. While shoveling dirt back in, some got in between the ibc and the iron, creating a bit of a bow in the tank. No biggy, but damn annoying at the time. Got as much out as I could, but still a little bow in it. Put in about a foot of water in tonight to test for leaks (tested before burying, but wanted to do another test to be sure). Decking/platform to go on tomorrow.

Quachy

PS - Milne, I know I will be moving the same amount of dirt with the tubs, but 6 small holes is a hell of a lot easier to dig than increasing the one large one, particularly when you hit the bedrock 500mm down! And will take pics tomorrow.

Here are some photos

More!

and still more...

some more...

anyone know how to upload more than 3 photos? this is driving me nuts

The garage wall is west facing and this area of teh yard gets really hot in summer, so for my screening of the tanks, I am using bamboo fencing stuff from B and will line this with sisolation and then pack it with ceiling bats. One bag should be enough to do all of the sides. I will make three lids one for each tank and they will be lined with shade cloth.

Work on this system will slowdown for a while. I have work starting up again on Monday, camp for a week with 120 yr 9 kids (fun...) and assignments, corrections and reports coming out of my

Will continue to post updates as they happen.

Quachy

Ya might want to re-think fiberglass insulation for an outdoor situation like that, it becomes useless when wet. Foam or bubble warp types might be a better choice.