Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

[quote="peter shaw"
It is the standard. Is it perfect? no. Just like a master plan, it is subject to change and improvement.

even you agree that its an evolutionary process.. from your opening comments...
Easily cheated? Show me a society where no one cheats. Someone always cheats. Someone always does what they should not, that is why we as a species and society have rules, and why we seem to need more and more laws all the time, because someone is always trying to get around them. The cheating in this case was one company that tricked all the inspectors, not just the certifiers. I do not hold them accountable for the company doing to cheating.[/quote]

Holy Dooley Batman, you have just effectively argued; that because a certified system is easily cheated we should have the system, even though the certifiers could not do there jobs. Furthermore you seem to support lowering the standards so that there will be fewer cheats. I may have tightened up on the original a little, but I think that's what you've said. Sorry Peter but your rational as an educator escapes me.

Yes I do believe standards should be an evolutionary process, in the sense of improving standards, but your example to your students of a lowering of the standard being acceptable (with the best of intent) is in fact a devolution or a degrading of the existing standards. Once again your logic escapes me - but perhaps it is my formal education that is lacking (thank goodness).

Holy Dooley Batman? is that what Robin said?

you do not understand the certification process. period.

it is not the certifiers that certify the individual inputs, that is for organizations like OMRI, which do not certify farms. So who was cheated, which system was cheated.

yes you are right, your formal education is lacking and you have failed to address the main topic of your thread

Please post your fool proof certification guidelines that are concrete, voluntary of course because you would not want anyone to tell you what to do and without any question are beyond the line you have drawn in the sand.

when you suggest anything, anything at all the might work you can send me a message.

Multiple layers of certification... by multiple certification bodies.... doomed to abuse and ultimate failure IMO...

I always thought that it was quite simple... to obtain certification... all inputs had to be certified...

At least that's the case here in Australia AFAIK...

Peter, sorry if you found my précis of your line of thinking offensive.

It is because I do understand the organic certification process, and associated bureaucracy, that I am highly critical of the direction it has taken. And btw I too am subject to various compulsory quality assurance measures imposed on my business and farm, and we are certified for various forms of production - even helped write some of the protocols. Several of my friends and peers are certifiers for various organic agencies and we have discussed the processes at length and written Senate (Australian) submissions on the subject. But you are absolutely right, although I can follow the process and even recite parts of the Oz standard verbatim, I fail to grasp it's logic - as do many of the certifiers. If honesty and integrity cannot be certified to actually be present in reality, something you rightly claim, what good is the certification process? Answer that and we can move on.

As for writing something that could be used by all APers as a guide to desirable; traits, outcomes, and performance of AP, it is easily done. I was hoping for a collaborative effort though, something that more than one or two of us could pledge allegiance to.

Here's something to ponder Peter, I will assume you are a citizen of a country (probably the United States of America) and as such you have pledged your allegiance to the ideals of your country. Does a certifying body (The Department of Citizenship Verification) conduct annual audits on your activities? Would you pass? I bet you would if they did. So what would make anyone less likely to be a good APer than a good citizen? What are the factors that lead to good outcomes for citizenship? Apply these same factors to membership of any organization and it will work - particularly if it is voluntary. I assume choice of citizenship is voluntary in your country, and you could opt out if desired?

So back to the main point at hand.

What are the suggestions for Organic AP criteria? How will we deal with the primary stumbling block of fish feed?
I believe the plant supplements for the AP system can be managed using acceptable materials for buffering, potassium, iron and salt when needed.

The biggest challenge I see is the fish feed. Now for a fish like tilapia, it might be possible to raise them without commercial feed but the growth rate and nutrient production might be too low for profit. For many other types of fish, how the heck are you gonna get organically certified fish meal for use in the feed? What should our rules allow for the fish feed?

Here is hoping you had a great memorial day and that you spent the day thanking those that died for your ability to do what ever it is you do.

thank you TLClynx. Great questions, McFarm?

please make a constructive correction to your current organic regulators.

Am working on the fish feed issue atm. Been toying with the idea of rabbit culls (feral pest) on farm being used for the carnivorous fish - already used for dog food. Someone suggested fine mincing and then drying it out, or freezing it for later use. Not sure of the protein content, but must be reasonably high.

The carnivorous fish are problematic for a backyard situation for sure, but this is a commercial thread. Even so, biopods, worm farms, fly traps and so on would probably work in the back yard. At say 2% of body weight of live fish per day feed most backyard system would get by with <500grams. It can't be too hard to generate that amount of high protein feed per day on site. There are even a few legumes that push the 35% protein levels (lupins, peas). If you are not squeamish, guinea pigs are very productive and prolific in a back yard. I am sure it would not take much to raise enough to fed an AP system - the kids may have issues with new raison d'etre of the cute and cuddly though.

The predominantly vegetarian fish are less of a problem as there are numerous plants that the AP system could supply as fish food.

Essentially, and with the exception of electricity, I am suggesting living of the photosynthetic process. That is the sun generates the food that feeds the system - this is how the planet works and we all live off the excess of photosynthesis. The planet is a closed loop with the only external input being solar radiation, why not aim for that in an AP standard? This would take the symbiosis of AP closed loop system to it's logical conclusion.

Admittedly a truly closed loop would be the 'gold standard' and many would fall short of achieving this for numerous reasons. However the pass or fail method of qualification has some serious shortfalls, so a series of graduated levels should probably apply. These should be fairly easy to work out.

A closed loop system may not be as financially 'productive' as one that relies on external inputs, however if the external inputs are not taken into account environmentally, we eventually come back to our current dilemma of externalized costs stuffing up the planet. Notice no mention of organics so far.

Instead of cute guinea pigs ,, take a look at one of natures BEST most prolific protein producers,,,the Japanese quail.
When culling any bad chicks or small males , if not squeemish . they would make a nice mouthfull for a decent sized Barra / trout.

Peter, the problem with attempting constructive corrections with the organic regulators is that they become a bureaucracies, often with competing agendas and turf wars. The main objective of any bureaucracy once established is growth and self perpetuation. All advice is falling on deaf ears atm, as they say "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". The people involved in organics and standards have good intentions, for sure, but not seeing the forest for the trees is always an issue.

Mcfarm, so you're saying that all hydroponic growers in your country are also not allowed to be organic?

As far as feed, I was thinking of raising shrimp (if allowed), along with catfish. When I harvest the shrimp, there will be the heads and the shells; grind those up for feed and add a few worms. It won't be much but it will cut the cost of feed a little. And both of these are high in Omega 3 content.
Also I have read that there is chitosan in the shrimp shells that works as a clarifier, flocculant to clear water for sewage treatment. Basically it will bind to fish waste, making it heavier and easier to remove from the system, even smaller particles.
It actually has many uses. This is just a sample.
http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seattle/ ... allb1.html

Angie, in Oz and Europe the standards were written to deliberately exclude hydroponics. So the standards stipulate that to be 'organic' the plants must be grown in soil.

Isn't it amazing how much gravel there is in my soil and I still manage to grow wonderful organic produce in these containers in my very gravely soil. I do have a very fancy irrigation system and my organic fish emulsion fertilizer is all produced right on sight.

No, that isn't a fish tank, it's an "ornamental pond".

One needs to understand the rules to get around them ya know. I mean, what is soil anyway? Some might say dirt but then again I'm sure there are plenty of "organic" container grown plants that are growing in soil-less potting mix. Now do the regulations say the Organic plants must be grown in the ground? Do they prohibit container grown plants? Do they prohibit raised garden beds?

So back to soil. Do the regulations say what kind of soil is required for organic certification? Where does soil come from? it is a mixture of mineral (rock) and Organic materials. The only thing different about grave compared to dirt is the gravel is bigger!!!!!! And I've got plenty of organic matter now mixed with my gravel. Who is really to say it isn't soil. Just very rocky soil. The plants don't seem to know the difference.

Now I can't say that you would really be able to get around the officials with this line of logic but then again, I'm not actually trying to get around the officials.

TCLynx, a case could be made for established gravel grow beds complete with micro and macro flora and fauna, but could anyone be bothered to fight the system? Also in a commercial situation it is the DWC rafts that will make the money with fish a bonus. The DWC is expressly excluded and the fish problematic due to the feed issues. Feed issues solved and fish should be alllowed, but the DWC probably never.

It is a choice, to try and get Aquaponics recognized as part of the existing system or create your own entirely new system. Pros and cons in either.

Organics has no measures for several unsustainable practices. eg. food miles and large monoculture systems. This is something organics can no longer address as they chose to deal with the walmarts of the world, and money talks (and big money gives commands).

As good as AP is, and as much as the message needs spreading further, do we really want to see AP hitched to the biggest is best theory of economics and life in general?