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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 13:20 
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BatonRouge Bill wrote:
I stand corrected on the global cooling for the last 9 years.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/re ... dec-pg.gif

Interesting graph. Up almost 1 degree C on land at top limit. Interesting the changes that do occur on so little.


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 13:35 
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Chappo wrote:
Always an intertesting debate ,, as usual it attracts radical non facts from both sides.

Rupert , everyone knows the Sun orbits the earth and the eARTH IS FLAT,,, PLEASE TRY AND STAY WITH FACTS:)

So what is the answer?? I type this on my laptop , sucking up power from hydrocarbons , made essentially from hydrocarbons , transported to my home by burning hydrocarbons.AM i willing to give up all these things??? well no I'm not.

The basic law of economics can help here ,, " Unlimited wants and limited resources". You want the world to use less petyrol , then make it expensive. I suggest a price around $5 per litre would see substantial reductions in usage. AHHH now watch the poorer people scream???? They don't want to give up the convenience of a car either.
That IS the real problem ,, no-one wants to sacrifice , they merely want to blame

LOL!!!! :D :cheers: Me either ..... laptop..... but why should I? Sustainability is perfectly possible alongside technology. Abuse of tech is the problem...

What sacrifice? Get creative here....... Return to the original SUV. :D
Attachment:
Original SUV.jpg
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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 23:59 
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Ok , I admit being somewhat 'blunted" on the subject because of impracticle solutions thrown up by green-heads , but I do have high hopes for this one,...............,
http://www.weeklytimesnow.com

.au/article/2009/04/28/72355_grain-and-hay.html
http://www.plantstone.com.au/Carbon%20i ... stones.pdf

Grow wheat , barley etc , get good crops AND lock up carbon for 8,000 years ,, AHH now that sounds good.

It has far greater possibilities than the STUPID idea of carbon trading for trees. Not much thought went into that STUPID idea. In North east Thailand tens of thoiusands of hectares have been planted with Australian gum trees to get carbon trading money ..... and after 10 years getting that income the trees will be cut down and turned into fire-wood ,, NOW do you see how stupid carbon trading for trees can be?

Aquaponic wheat?


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PostPosted: Apr 30th, '09, 00:22 
Yep.. the concept of carbon trade-offs is stupid.... why...

Because it's merely a means of off-setting the problem... pollution.... licensing the right to pollute...

It doesn't solve the root cause... pollution.... it just gives people/corporations/politicians an "out"... a feel good position...


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PostPosted: Apr 30th, '09, 00:39 
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Always thought I'd be happy with just a mule to get around with. Would the mule be happy with me though?

You don't think technology will solve our problems without blasting off into outer space to look for a new home? I think most peep's believe this. That's why for most people it'll be like steppin' out in front of a greyhound bus, they won't know what hit them.

We'll keep running things into the ground until we become like 1/2 insect or morph into some type of toxic avenger.


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PostPosted: Apr 30th, '09, 09:54 
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CARBON TRADING is a 'rip off'.......a money making scheme for the (as the name implies) CARBON TRADERS!

And who pays for it??

Ordinary taxpayers .....everybody......OPPOSE it where ever you can!


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PostPosted: Apr 30th, '09, 22:09 
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It was good to hear Obama say last night that we need to end this boom/bust cycle we've been on. When the bubble eventually bursts we all got hell to pay. What's the next one in the making? The green revolution, cap/trade? I've had it. It was good to see Obama standing tall and trying to set things right. Might be too late for the lifecycle of this current system however. Thx greedy corporations...


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PostPosted: Apr 30th, '09, 23:55 
And even less thanks to the blood sucking vampires of the banks...


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PostPosted: May 1st, '09, 00:54 
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The "what if" scenario yet again....all it takes is perception and fear takes it from there.

EGYPTIAN FARMERS FORCED TO KILL SWINE HERDS
Amidst overflowing bags of garbage, Abu Sayed raises pigs, chickens, ducks, pigeons and goats on a small muddy plot of land in order to feed and clothe the extended family of 14 with whom he shares a blackened makeshift shack.
Since he doesn’t own a radio or a TV, we were the first to inform him that the Egyptian government decreed on Wednesday that his pigs, along with all 300,000 pigs in the country, had to be slaughtered as a precaution against the spread swine flu; despite the fact that no cases of the H1N1 swine flu virus have been reported here and it is spread by people, not pigs.
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 15246.aspx


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PostPosted: May 1st, '09, 04:11 
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Poor piggies... article on cnn.com said they were for 10% of egypt's christian population. So the rest of the country considered them a abomination anyway. Pigs, not christians... :-)


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PostPosted: May 1st, '09, 15:24 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
And even less thanks to the blood sucking vampires of the banks...
Reminds me of a story I read online.....
Quote:
THE MONEY MYTH EXPLODED
The financial enigma resolved
A debt money system
by Louis Even

1. Shipwreck survivors

An explosion had blown their ship apart. Each one grasped the first bit of wreckage that came to hand, And when it was over there were five left, five huddled on a raft which the waves carried along at their will, As for the other victims of the disaster, there was no sign of them.

Hour after long hour their eyes searched the horizon. Would some passing ship sight them? Would their makeshift raft find its way to some friendly shore? Suddenly a cry rang out: "Land! Look! Over there in the direction the waves are carrying us!" And as the vague silhouette proved itself to be, in fact, the outline of a shore, the figures on the raft danced with joy.

They were five, five Canadians. There was Frank, the carpenter, big and energetic, It was he who had first cried, "Land!" Then Paul, a farmer. You can see him on his knees, one hand against the floor, the other gripping the mast of the raft. Next Jim, an animal breeder; he's the one in the striped pants, kneeling and gazing in the direction of land. Then there is Harry, an agriculturist, a little on the stout side, seated on a trunk salvaged from the wreck. And finally Tom, a prospector and a mineralogist; he is the merry fellow standing in the rear with his hand on the carpenter's shoulder.

2. A Providential island

To our five men, setting foot on land was like returning to life from the grave. When they had dried and warmed themselves their first impulse was to explore this little island on to which they had been cast, far from civilization. A quick survey was sufficient to raise their spirit. The island was not a barren rock. True enough, they were the only men on it at the moment. But judging from the herds of semi domesticated animals they encountered, there must have been men here at some time before them.

Jim, the animal breeder, was sure he could completely domesticate them and put them to good service. Paul found the island's soil, for the most part, to be quite suitable for cultivation. Harry discovered some fruit trees which, if properly tended, would give good harvests. Most important were the large stands of timber embracing many types of wood. Frank, without too much difficulty, would be able to build houses for the little community. As Tom, the prospector, well, the rock formations of the island showed signs of rich mineral deposits, Lacking the tools, Tom still felt his ingenuity and initiative could produce metals from the ores.

So each could serve the common good with his special talent. All agreed to call the place Salvation Island. All gave thanks to Providence for the reasonably happy ending to what could have been stark tragedy.

3. True wealth

Here are the men at work. The carpenter builds houses and makes furniture. At first they find their food where they can. But soon the fields are tilled and seeded, and the farmer has his crops. As season followed season this island, this heritage of the five men, Salvation Island, became richer and richer. Its wealth was not that of gold or of paper bank notes, but one of true value; a wealth of food and clothing and shelter, of all the things to meet human needs. Each man worked at his own trade. Whatever surpluses he might have of his own produce, he exchanged for the surplus products of the others. Life wasn't always as smooth and complete as they could have wished it to be. They lacked many of the things to which they had been accustomed in civilization. But their lot could have been a great deal worse. Besides, all had experienced the depression in Canada. They still remembered the empty bellies side by side with stores crammed with food. At least, on Salvation Island, they weren't forced to see the things they needed rot before their eyes. Taxes were unknown here. Nor did they go in constant fear for seizure by the bailiff. They worked hard but at least they could enjoy the fruits of their toil. So they developed the island, thanking God and hoping for the day of reunion with their families still in possession of life and health, those two greatest of blessings.

4. A serious inconvenience

Our men often got together to talk over their affairs. Under the simple economic system which had developed, one thing was beginning to bother them more and more; they had no form of money. Barter, the direct exchange of goods for goods, had its drawbacks. The products to be exchanged were not always at hand when a trade was discussed. For example, wood delivered to the farmer in winter could not be paid for in potatoes until six months later. Sometimes one man might have an article of considerable size which he wished to exchange for a number of smaller articles produced by different men at different times.

All this complicated business and laid a heavy burden on the memory. With a monetary system, however, each one could sell his products to the others for money. With this money he could buy from the others the things he wanted, when he wished and when they were available.

It was agreed that a system of money would indeed be very convenient. But none of them knew how to set up such a system. They knew how to produce true wealth - goods. But how to produce money. the symbol of this wealth, was something quite beyond them. They were ignorant of the origin of money, and needing it they didn't know how to produce it. Certainly, many men of education would have been in the same boat; all our governments were in that predicament during the ten years prior to the war. The only thing the country lacked at that time was money, and the governments apparently didn't know what to do to get it.

5. Arrival of a refugee

One evening when our boys were sitting on the beach going over their problem for the hundredth time, they suddenly saw approaching, a small boat with a solitary man at the oars. They learned that he was the only survivor of a wreck. His name, Olivier.

Delighted to have a new companion they provided him with the best they had and took him on an inspection tour of the colony. "Even though we're lost and cut off from the rest of the world," they told him, "we haven't too much to complain about. The earth and the forest are good to us. We lack only one think - money. That would make it easier for us to exchange our products."

"Well, you can thank Providence," replied Olivier, "because I am a banker and in no time at all I'll set up a system of money guaranteed to satisfy you. Then you'll have everything that people in civilization have." A banker!... A BANKER!... An angel coming down out of the clouds couldn't have inspired more reverence and respect in our men. For, after all, are we not accustomed, we people in civilization, to genuflect before bankers, those men who control the life-blood of finance? ..............................

A Canadian site.... the rest is here......http://www.prolognet.qc.ca/clyde/money.htm


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PostPosted: May 1st, '09, 20:09 
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Story is interesting, but needs some 'juice.' Where's the invading mongol hordes, no 'Vlad' the Impaler? I won't even touch the apparently civil casualty without females on the island.

Without going to the link and finish reading the rest of the story I'd think the banker will have an apple(or papaya) in his mouth by nightfall and roasting on an open pit.

I'd lean toward a more 3rd world kind of survival, before they all went nuts and killed each other.


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PostPosted: May 1st, '09, 20:42 
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NAHHHH ,, there was a clear pristine Atoll beside the island and those FROGS decided to do more nuclear testing:)


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PostPosted: May 1st, '09, 22:23 
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For those who don't want to read the full story, I've read it in the past and can summarize.

It's a parable pointing out the complete stupidity of the central banking system, and how it leads to the indentured servitude of the non-bankers in society.

In the US, the government sells bonds, which it makes up, to the Fed. The Fed then pays for the bonds in dollars, which the Fed made up. The dollars are then spread about the rest of society. A year, 2 years, 10 years, whatever later, the Fed has earned interest on those bonds. The government has to pay the Fed in dollars that interest. But they only got the face value of the bonds from the Fed in the first place. So they need to borrow more money by selling more bonds to come up with the cash to pay the interest on the old bonds. The cycle continues, the debt of the government to the Fed goes up and up and up, more and more money is created, the value of any one dollar goes down and down. The systems are pretty similar all around the world.

The moral of the story is that real wealth is not found in paper notes or even metals. It is found in productive assets that yield real things that help in life.


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PostPosted: May 1st, '09, 22:41 
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+1 Tamo

And that to exchange goods with each other we do not need money. A simple Social Credit system... debit and credit account records kept between trusted members of a community can by-pass A not needing what B has to give when B needs what A has.

All must be trusted members................. hmmmm. :roll: Tough these days. But any way is less risky than trusting a banker anyway!!!! :D


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